Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Reddit + - Video: BHP’s twisted train wreck By Houses and Holes in Commodities, Featured Article, Iron ore priceat 12:20 pm on November 8, 2018 | 71 comments Straight out of the movies this: Trains to be running again within a week. 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Peachy November 8, 2018 at 1:18 pm I was thinking this also. The real train wreck is in sydney. myne November 8, 2018 at 1:22 pm It’s easy – and anyone can do it if it costs them a lot more than having it working. Good, fast, cheap. You can guess which two they picked. Mow Y November 8, 2018 at 1:32 pm Not with multi-million revenue lost each day when the heavy-haul railway line is shut down. Paying demurrage charges for the bulk carriers on standby outside the port of Port Hedland and rerouting bulk carrier ships at short notice. Adds up quite quickly. If you impose that kind of LD charges the “muppets” will work really quickly. Peachy November 8, 2018 at 1:38 pm Hey, you’ve just spelled ACCOUNTABILITY! it’s a long word, that’s why nobody in NSW government can spell it. Also they don’t have a concept of CONSEQUENCES…. might be related. SupernovaMEMBER November 8, 2018 at 12:34 pm Humans Vs Machines Cost IndexMEMBER November 8, 2018 at 12:39 pm Next stop, Pilotless aircraft.. Cost IndexMEMBER November 8, 2018 at 12:45 pm Crashes like this are frequently blamed on pilot/driver error, never mind fatigue, preposterous time targets etc, where the systemic fault actually was created higher up the chain. But with out someone on the frontline to take the blame, who will? The middle level manager that oversaw it all? Answer: “It was the system” faceless blame on a computer can be plausibly assigned and everyone will nod in agreement, heck even bonuses will be handed out on this darklydrawlMEMBER November 8, 2018 at 12:52 pm Yes – the real failure and issue here is the lack of a dead man’s brake or ability to remotely stop the engines. You can be confident that those system will be in place soon. This incident is likely to be costly to BHP on several fronts. Timmeh November 8, 2018 at 3:53 pm DD, I had forgotten about the deadmans brake until you mentioned it. I thought all trains had those things? Wiley Wolf November 8, 2018 at 12:57 pm had that ac in Indonesia been left on auto it wouldn’t have crashed pilot error. HUGE pilot error Huge lawsuit coming up Andrew November 8, 2018 at 1:57 pm That must be why Boeing is busily releasing warnings about electronic stabilisers. Because it was all the pilot’s fault. Wiley Wolf November 8, 2018 at 2:23 pm its the pilots job to leave the ac on auto those ac have multiple systems to fly the ac. bjw678 November 8, 2018 at 2:33 pm And had the aircraft been pilotless, the manufacturer bears all responsibility for every crash that ever happens, no possible doubt at all. This is why autonomouos cars are a lot further away than anyone thinks. Autopilots have been capable of completely autonomous flight for 40+ years, yet no autonomous passenger aircraft have been produced. Wiley Wolf November 8, 2018 at 2:43 pm bj and why you see so few female crew up the pointy end the passengers just dont trust em. Timmeh November 8, 2018 at 4:07 pm WW, rubbish. Have you seen the EOP’s for a new 737? Unless you have, you are talking rubbish. I also suggest you youtube “children of magenta” if you think that autopilots are all seeing and knowing. Sophisticated autopilots bring in a totally new raft of issues that need to be worked around. You’ve got no idea how quickly two pilots can be task saturated during a busy flight phase such as takeoff or landing, especially in busy airspace and a modern sophisticated aircraft. Wiley Wolf November 8, 2018 at 4:32 pm t the instrument was an aoa indicator no influence at all after to. you are taking through yr beanie DennisMEMBER November 8, 2018 at 4:33 pm WW, Sorry, but your wrong. From what I’ve heard the pilots had differing speed readouts, not sure what was the cause, but having the auto-pilot engaged would be of no benefit unless you know which system is producing the incorrect readouts. Thus a checklist: http://cdn.aviaforum.ru/images/2013/11/616397_c032fd6493cfbdc1527928147668092a.pdf Go to page 10.1 Your comment on female flight crew is just plain dumb! Timmeh November 8, 2018 at 4:37 pm God, you’re not Geoffrey Thomas are you? Because you talk as much uninformed sh!t as he does. Wiley Wolf November 8, 2018 at 4:45 pm well good thing the data recorders have been recovered we will soon know, and i will let you know in case u miss it. Timmeh November 8, 2018 at 5:09 pm Tell me what an autopilot will do if the ASI is misreading and what a human will do when he notices the plane isn’t acting like it should. I know you seem to think AI will take over the world, but in the 35 million euro helicopter I used to fly, that shares the autopilot with the A380, the processors were 486’s. The Augusta 139 FMS runs DOS FFS! You have no fvcking clue wolfy. Commercial aviation technology runs decades behind due to certification issues. Read the Air France crash report for the one out of Brazil if you want to see what an autopilot does with the most basic of instruments failing. It disconnects itself. The rest of what followed was a tragic case of the pilot’s not understanding what was going on. Again, I suggest you watch this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN41LvuSz10 because the levels of automation vastly decrease pilot skills and increase workload if they don’t keep a check on it. I’ve watched it happen myself. Wiley Wolf November 8, 2018 at 5:32 pm t the ac has backup in dr gps I thought you knew all this seems not Timmeh November 8, 2018 at 5:35 pm WTF does dead reckoning in the GPS have to do with an ASI malfunction? The FMS uses the GPS for tracking. The AMC uses ASI for the most basic of control inputs. You really are clueless. Tell me, if you are at the height envelope top and you are flying with a 200kt jetstream tailwind and relying on GPS ground speed, if the ASI fails, (actually, it’s usually pitot blockage that makes these scenarios) how fast in the air do you know you are going? Heard of high speed stall or coffin corner? bjw678 November 9, 2018 at 6:41 am @Timmeh “how quickly two pilots can be task saturated” That is the advantage of an autonomous system, they simply don’t task saturate. If you can tell me what to do in advance of it happening the system can be programmed to deal with it, and 486 class processing power is plenty sufficient for an autonomous aircraft given it requires none of the complex visual environmental processing for obstacle avoidance that a car requires. If you can fly the plane in 0 visibility so can an autopilot. Of course, they still aren’t and won’t be implemented any time soon for non technical reasons. TimMEMBER November 9, 2018 at 10:50 am DR GPS? Haha. You are tripping balls WW. bolstroodMEMBER November 8, 2018 at 12:39 pm Driverless Train? So this is the future. RyanMEMBER November 8, 2018 at 12:44 pm This one was unitentionally driverless. A bit like this one https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2003/rair/rair2003001/ Dazza197MEMBER November 8, 2018 at 12:47 pm it was only driverless in that the driver wasn’t on it – https://thewest.com.au/business/mining/bhp-cant-speculate-on-cause-of-110kmh-runaway-train-it-was-forced-to-derail-as-it-careered-toward-port-hedland-ng-b881014710z >> The driver had stopped about 210km from Port Hedland and got off to inspect one of the wagons but the train started to move with no one aboard. StomperMEMBER November 8, 2018 at 12:51 pm They used to have 2 drivers per train, but cut to one to save money. Wonder how that’s worked out for them? Peachy November 8, 2018 at 1:46 pm Stimper – but them blokes ain’t cheap! Wiley Wolf November 8, 2018 at 12:48 pm It had a driver,but the driver stepped out “to look at a wagon” there is the hole in the story. what feedback would the driver had received of anything amiss with a wagon??? What was the driver doing out of the cab?? where was the remote isolator for the engines?? how come the brakes, were released?? darklydrawlMEMBER November 8, 2018 at 12:49 pm This train had a driver. The driver stopped the train and exited the cabin to check a wagon problem en-route. It seems like the brakes were not applied correctly (or at all – although we don’t know the exact details at this early stage). However, as others have pointed out, the real failure is the lack of a ‘dead man’s’ brake or switch to stop the train remotely from the BHP control rooms. The only option was to derail it by remotely changing the points further down the line and by then the train was doing approx 200 km/hr. This will now impact BHP’s ability to get IO downstream for processing and export. Wiley Wolf November 8, 2018 at 12:55 pm DD no chance the train was ever doing 200 clicks nor that the driver was inspecting a wagon so what happened?? darklydrawlMEMBER November 8, 2018 at 1:34 pm Hi WW, yes I agree with your thoughts. The initial report I read said the train had reached 200 km/hr – which seem a stretch and I was doubtful it was correct. It seems that circa 120 km/hr is more accurate. myne November 8, 2018 at 1:56 pm WW: 500m elevation with a steady gradient and a shitload of tonnes = yes, can get to 200. Apparently. https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/comments/9usic1/bhp_runaway_iron_ore_train_left_a_twisted_wreck/ “500m above sea level and 28000 tons gives 137 Gj of energy to dissipate. Rolling resistance over 92kms would only account for 5.97 joules and would largely be negligible… Assuming 60 cars had locked brakes, coefficient of sliding friction of 0.3, that’s 187 joules of braking. Net result = big crash when it derailed. Would have been incredible to witness.” Wiley Wolf November 8, 2018 at 2:26 pm myne those curves arent banked for 200 it would have derailed much earlier how about if the train was a fair dinkum runaway and the driver jumped clear myne November 8, 2018 at 2:57 pm WW https://www.google.com.au/maps/dir/Newman+WA/Turners+Siding,+Marble+Bar+WA+6760/ Have a look at the end of that. The last 40km have bugger all curve. Wiley Wolf November 8, 2018 at 3:05 pm What are ya ya cant tell from a road map those trains normally run at about 60k and the track is designed for that speed especially the cross track tilt of the curves, and the support in those sleepers on the curves the radial forces are huge. tracks which use transverse sleepers are especially vulnerable to excess radial loads in curves from rolling stock either over mass or moving too quickly. myne November 8, 2018 at 3:09 pm ww Look at the bloody rails that run nearby. They’re almost straight. Look on satellite and follow it. Wiley Wolf November 8, 2018 at 3:22 pm i cant get satellite from that link what are the co ords for where the driver exited and where it derailed Mining BoganMEMBER November 8, 2018 at 3:39 pm 80k running. Rumour is reached 160 but who knows, information not coming my way. Where it took off from is steep so wouldn’t surprise me. Wiley Wolf November 8, 2018 at 3:50 pm MB so you recon a 28 thousand tonne train can roll away from a standing start faster than the driver can return to the cab? wiht 60 cars having locked brakes??? Mining BoganMEMBER November 8, 2018 at 3:53 pm Without doubt. If the brakes failed or kicked off or whatever happened it would go quickly. Very steep grade there. No chance to run it down if you were back up the rake. myne November 8, 2018 at 4:02 pm WW it derailed at Turners siding (northern part) Since you seem not to have used google maps before (wtf?!) click the thing that says satellite and zoom in on the end. You’ll see the rail line not far from the road. Follow it back. It started rolling somewhere about 90km back – near Mulga Downs somewhere. Mining BoganMEMBER November 8, 2018 at 4:10 pm Can’t edit… That’s an area if a train became disabled it’s 100% handbrakes applied before trying to recover the system. If the driver only had 60 handbrakes on before the train brakes failed or kicked off or whatever it would roll. No way could you run over 600 metres on broken ground to get on board…and probably a suicide mission if you could make it. Wiley Wolf November 8, 2018 at 4:35 pm Looked it up on google earth pro the track is gently curved but essentially level at 262m amsl especially the last 30 or so km so any speed you have heard about is rubbish in fact the last few km are up hill?? Wiley Wolf November 8, 2018 at 4:39 pm so now yr telling me the train dragged 60 cars, brakes on for 90km the flanges woulda worn off the wheels thus derailing those wagons??? and the rail will have to be re profiled. Wiley Wolf November 8, 2018 at 4:51 pm How do you know it was 600m and google shows the formation to be in good condition a man could easily run on that surface why would the driver be inspecting a wagon 600m from his cab do they have wheel monitoring?? was he checking the vacuum hoses? or did he jump off?? Mining BoganMEMBER November 8, 2018 at 4:58 pm Around the 210-211 the track is through cuttings. Very uneven ground in parts on the handbrake side. 60 handbrakes is going by the link myne has above. I didn’t know that but I do know why the driver got out and it makes sense. If the link is right he would have been going to do 260+ handbrakes but only got to 60 before it all went to sh!t. Mining BoganMEMBER November 8, 2018 at 5:10 pm Oh, there are hot wheel detectors everywhere. When detected it sends a message to the driver over the radio to pull up and have a look. Unfortunately this time the driver was still back in the hills worrying about wild dogs so not much could be done… Wiley Wolf November 8, 2018 at 5:12 pm so burning question why did the driver get out?? what are the co ords of where he jumped off? and if he only made 60, was he working from the locomotives back Mining BoganMEMBER November 8, 2018 at 5:16 pm That one I’m not going to say. Might get someone in trouble for spreading stories. BHP hates social media. Yep, locos back. Each car is 10 metres so if it was 60 cars=600m. Wiley Wolf November 8, 2018 at 5:30 pm well interesting story is that 210 from the mine or from the port Mining BoganMEMBER November 8, 2018 at 5:36 pm Port Wiley Wolf November 8, 2018 at 1:03 pm Stomper it would be better if there were no human drivers at all on the train barry_olorp November 8, 2018 at 12:54 pm We had a train derailment and the line was operational again very quickly – they’ll build a parallel temporary diversion around the crash – a few km’s of rail. It is a flat, dry area – hardly challenge construction conditions. The actual wagon clean up might take a while – but that is kind of irrelevant when you’re not using that track. The temporary diversion won’t be built to a high standard but will work fine until no longer needed. Mining BoganMEMBER November 8, 2018 at 3:24 pm They’ll bulldoze it all to one side and lay the replacement track. Might be a bigger delay finding out why so many failsafe systems failed. They won’t run until then. [email protected]MEMBER November 8, 2018 at 5:29 pm that’s the scandal. Failsafe gear bridged out. tut tut Mining BoganMEMBER November 8, 2018 at 6:03 pm Yep, even if the driver hadn’t prepared the cab correctly the failsafe systems should have kicked in before the train got away. That’s what they’re there for. Jacob November 8, 2018 at 1:00 pm Driverless train crashed into wall in Delhi. https://www.businesstoday.in/current/economy-politics/driverless-train-delhi-metro-magenta-line-crashes-wall-6-days-before-inauguration-pm-modi/story/266320.html Peachy November 8, 2018 at 1:21 pm We need to import many more skilled Indian IT dudes to address our skills shortage Robert November 8, 2018 at 1:03 pm I guess that will put back the push for crew less ships back a decade or so, Presumably VP of Freight is also responsible for Rail. https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/bhp-billiton-joins-the-push-for-autonomous-vessels Wiley Wolf November 8, 2018 at 1:07 pm No it was the fault of the driver driverless is the future Dr Fixit November 8, 2018 at 2:02 pm You have to ask if it was a driverless train then why did it even have a driver on it? If he was just monitoring it then there should have been a fail safe system where the driver must acknowledge he is on-board periodically otherwise the train stops. Robert November 8, 2018 at 4:19 pm Isn’t that why there are drivers on trains? So it can be someone’s fault other than either the manufacturer of the train or the company operating it? If they introduce driverless trains, they’ll only have themselves to blame next time this happens. Dr Fixit November 8, 2018 at 2:00 pm Reminds me of what is coming for the Australian housing market with all that brown fine dirt being infestors. Peachy November 8, 2018 at 3:49 pm APRA is the train driver – world class monitoring of multiple failsafe systems. Agahahhahahas The Traveling Wilbur November 12, 2018 at 8:11 pm APRA couldn’t regulate anything train related, only monorails. They’ve got a one-track mind (MOAR debt for Aus is good).