China to punish 22 million for bad social credit

Via Bloomie comes life under the God King:

China’s plan to judge each of its 1.3 billion people based on their social behavior is moving a step closer to reality, with Beijing set to adopt a lifelong points program by 2021 that assigns personalized ratings for each resident.

The capital city will pool data from several departments to reward and punish some 22 million citizens based on their actions and reputations by the end of 2020, according to a plan posted on the Beijing municipal government’s website on Monday. Those with better so-called social credit will get “green channel” benefits while those who violate laws will find life more difficult.

The Beijing project will improve blacklist systems so that those deemed untrustworthy will be “unable to move even a single step,” according to the government’s plan. Xinhua reported on the proposal Tuesday, while the report posted on the municipal government’s website is dated July 18.

Dan Andrews has nothing to worry about. Or does he? At the AFR:

The White House has slammed China’s increasingly frequent and sophisticated use of cyber attacks, citing the diversion of internet traffic and restarting of state-sponsored hacking programs among a litany of sharply worded complaints made against Beijing.

In his bi-annual report on China, US Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer, said Beijing had “fundamentally” failed to change its behaviour around cyber espionage giving it unfair access to intellectual property, trade secrets, negotiating positions and the internal communications of business.

The report adds weight to revelations in The Australian Financial Review this week that China diverted internet traffic heading to Sydney and its peak security agency had overseen a surge in attacks on Australian companies.

I’m sure Victoria is exempt.

Comments

  1. its pretty crap but how is it any worse than what western countries do? the u.k puts ppl in jail for saying bad words for longer than china does.

      • Meh – its completely true.

        Western surveillance and curtailment of citizens far exceeds that of China. The irony of people being more free in China is just completely lost on people around here – its abundantly true.

        When the anti-terror laws were passed ultimately allowing the state to hold you in detention, without access to a lawyer – indefinitely, and without a judges approval we pretty much went straight passed even China.

        People are just completely and utterly incapable of sitting down and creating a COLUMN A and a COLUMN B and comparing them. All they can do is go “US GOOD > THEM BAD” – and anything we do has a completely and valid excuse for it, and anything they do is entirely evil no matter what.

        Its inane, childish, boorish, simpleton stuff from the most feeble minded. But hey – most people simply can’t think past the first idea that resonates and shakes their reality and they get stuck on square one for their entire adult life.

        Its difficult to move past the basics.

      • Yeah, I remember being horrified at what was happening in the West in the mid-2000’s with all the anti-terror laws crap and actually getting depressed at the “Brave New World” world we seemed to be heading toward. Now even I seem to have adapted and got used to it to some degree.

      • Every now and again I have a discussion with a guy at work about how less free we are these days and how it kind of sucks really. One of the other guys is just totally into the idea of security at the expense of freedom, though he is never able to argue successfully for. Doesn’t change his tune though.

      • Trying to change peoples religious beliefs with facts is simply a lost cause.
        What amazes me is that people so highly critical of historical religion can be so completely blind to their own “religious beliefs” of the modern world.
        Us good, them bad has been a cornerstone of “religion” forever.

      • Maybe some good will come from this and it will alert people to the fact that our own governments are becoming ever more powerful at our expense. I remain hopeful.

      • @Dan – “Sure, sure criticize the Tories and you’ll be “unable to move even a single step” – for life.”

        Well a striking example is Julian Assange. Confined for 5-6 yrs in Embassy & will be deported to USA for Trial if he emerges alive because Poms like Australia bow to Yank power. He’s an Australian Citizen – a Journalist of high integrity who exposed the most horrific crimes & he has been abandoned. Feb 5, 2016 – the UN working group on arbitrary detention called on the Swedish and British authorities to end Julian Assange’s ‘deprivation of liberty. The UK Govt Ignores the ruling !!! The Clunts!
        —- and daily I read string em up articles about bad behaviour from China. China bad – USA <UK good — Crap !

      • Can’t argue with any of the above comments. Our media is intent on dissing China which has been largely a peaceful country for decades. Yes guilty of treating its people like worker ants sponsored by USA corporations and forcefully moving masses of people to build dams etc, which kinda has to be done in such a populated country so difficult to know how bad they treat people unless you are there experiencing it.

        At least they don’t throw 2% of the population in cages like USA does.

    • As you say it’s pretty much the same, the only difference being western governments allow their citizens to live in a society that has ‘perceived’ freedom and democracy.

    • China- Communists
      Bad people in the West who put people in jail for saying bad words- Communists.
      The distinction between the West and China is built upon the premise that traditionally the West has had a Capitalist structure. With the rise of Socialism/Communism this is no longer the case. So yes you are right, it is no worse than what we do because we are fast becoming Socialist/Communists ourselves.

      • So yes you are right, it is no worse than what we do because we are fast becoming Socialist/Communists ourselves.

        The last 30-40 years have seen extensive sell-off of public assets, privatisation of public services (or dramatic reductions intended to drive people towards private providers), reduced taxation on capital, massively increased profit share to capital, the practical death of unions, reduced rights for workers, stagnating wages, extensive corruption and influence of Government by business and wealthy individuals, deregulation of parasitic industries, increases in monopolies and oligopolies, mass-scale promotion of hyper-individualism and demonisation of collective actions, and, more recently, sustained attacks on democratic institutions and increasingly authoritarian leaders and state organisations.

        If that picture represents “Socialism/Communism”, it’s certainly a rather unique definition thereof.

        We are not heading towards “Socialism/Communism”, we are running away from it at an increasing pace, towards some sort of neo-Feudalism.

      • Andrew, you are confirming the point of “US” vs “them”.
        So if we are proved to be as bad, that’s because we are becoming “them” and therefore “US” is always good/right.

        Typical religious ideology that proves the previous comments.

        Don’t know how we are becoming “Communists” though

      • China is the collapse of socialism, they have moved completely to fascism/capitalism.
        Chinese millionaires is a term completely incompatible with communism.

    • This Chinese social credit score – (some additional 22 million Chinese to be tagged as undesirables) is just an small extension…. of an already massive China five year plan in misfit, criminal, useless being relocated or exported by China in slum clearance.

      Ask yourself – China identifies these 22 million criminals, low life and undesirables – then what?

      They get ‘re-educated?
      More typically they try to leave China – or else China actively exports this social burden,

      This social credit score is just a small part of a much bigger China program.
      The China’s ‘Hukou’ or internal pass controls and the official 5 year plan calls for 100 million 1st & 2nd generation Chinese peasants, low class, low skill, petty criminals, vice workers, old, sick, useless…
      To be cleansed from China’s tier 1 cities.
      “The reform of the hukou system is a major plank of the 13th Five-Year Plan. At least 100 million internal migrants will have their hukou status ‘ regularized ‘ by 2020.”
      https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/02/01/chinas-middle-class-is-pulling-up-the-ladder-behind-itself/

      This has been going on for over a decade, just now it’s offical Chinese communist party policy.
      This Chinese slum clearance was to be relocated (hence the ghost cities waiting for this) or increasingly being ‘exported’ to another country as migrant guestworkers or if the country is silly enough to allow them in as Australia has – as PR, or TR to PR.

      The Chinese government & Chinese criminal syndicates collaborate in cleansing China of their social misfits and undesirable burden.

      9 million of this Chinese lowlife & undesirables have now been exported.
      Often the clearance exported will be ‘mules’ or proxies for the communist party officials and Chinese criminal syndicates dirty money & criminal proceeds to launder into a safe haven, again ideally western, no repatriation – like Australia. Few or no checks and wide open in the dirty money flow. Why some of these Chinese appear ‘rich’. An old Chinese unskilled toothless peasant that has millions to buy an investor citizenship. A 2nd generation peasant mother purchasing multiple units or houses. An obvious vice worker or Chinese pimp student with no skills & no apparent income driving arils in the Mercedes coupe buying flats or houses to then ‘rent out’. It’s not their money. Just a proxy.

      And destroying that countries housing market.
      A most lucrative income model (Chinese dirty money, purchase of modest established Australian housing via a proxy, run it as migrant only sub let cash in hand rental to house the Chinese migrant guestworker influx.
      Money sent back to the Chinese criminal syndicates plus a safe haven.

      Australia has allowed in over 1 million Chinese mainland communists.
      • 396,000 Chinese Mainland PRC most on PR. Permanent stay, Medicare, welfare fraud, proxies for the money washing, laundering for the syndicates.
      • 420,000 Chinese Mainland Communists as TR, most as foreign students & partners, working illegally, repay agent procurer debt, epi centre of vice & crime, most on a pretext visa and living / working illegally, fake funds and in visa breach.
      •105,000 Chinese Mainland Communists via the NZ SCV back door.
      => 900,000 permanent & very long stay.
      Plus another 220,000 Chinese mainland communists as Tourist/Visitors onshore at any one time, many working illegally.

      So easily 1.1 million Chinese Mainland communist nationals onshore.

      Occupying some 250,000 ex Australian dwellings
      Highly concentrated in Sydney & Melbourne.
      Vast Chinese only ghettoes.
      A recreation of the Guangzhou slums they were expelled from.
      Most of this intake are Chinese slum clearance.
      Invariably they will be Chinese peasant or 2nd gen peasant stock, low skill, fake papers & doc, unskilled, undesirables, petty criminals, vice workers etc.
      Again invariably in debt to their foreign agent procurer/criminal syndicate, and invariably many a front or carrier for the Chinese criminal syndicates & party in the dirty money being washed out of China.
      That facilitates the export & offshore colonisation by China in cleansing out their undesirables and shifting that burden to countries like Australia.
      -/-
      The Chinese social credit score program?
      It will only hasten the volume and flow of Chinese to countries like Australia.
      Our border control & visa system is totally broken.

      What will come into Australia will be even more of the Chinese underclass, petty criminals, undesirables and misfits. To be our burden.
      -/-
      Australia should demand the social credit score and Hukou status of every Chinese allowed into Australia.

      China will never provide it – and many of the Chinese have fake identities & papers ($2k in China buys a Chinese passport identity and assured Australian PR) but some checking could be done.

      What it will show is over 90% of the Chinese who have been given PR, TR or via NZ SCV backdoor were socially undesirables, force exited or ‘assisted’ to exit China.

      And that begs the question.
      If China didn’t want these people, viewing them as undesirables, useless, not worthy, misfits, old, sick & useless – then why are we taking them?

  2. Australia, UK, America

    Credit scores are checked against social media status (almost all micro-lenders use this)
    Access to renting is based on secret privately owned social tracked record
    Access to loans, mobile phones, transport (uber), and almost anything requiring a credit score is tracked by a social credit system with no recourse or government oversight.
    Freedom of movement is tightly controlled on all citizens with poor social scores via bad debts (traffic infringements), marital and parental status, unemployment (benefits revoked if moving to low employment area), forced / mandated employment (work for dole) dictating where one can live, parole.
    Choice of schools mandated and restricted based geographic location.
    Social services of every nature restricted / granted based on gender, assets, ethnicity (Aboriginal Torres straight Islander), migrant, permanent etc.
    All activities can be monitored including littering with removal of access to services and fines via mobile phone, metadata, camera tracking without requirement for warrant by almost 800 agencies (public and private).
    All internet, telephone, digital, and telephony activities monitored, stored and access provided to 800 agencies without warrant.
    Mandatory docking of pay for indiscretions.

    The list is endless – but yeah – Dan Andrews is literally MAO and part of the Gang of Three.

    Godwins law on steroids.

    • Choice of schools mandated and restricted based geographic location.

      So sending your kids to a school near where you live is part of an oppressive gummint plot? I like a good conspiracy theory as much as the next man, but that’s drawing a pretty long bow.

      Mandatory docking of pay for indiscretions.

      What? Seriously, what does that mean?

      • @LSWCHP – – cherry picking is Nit picking. What about the other items on “endless” list ? –
        Your reply ?

      • @Hardon. It’s largely nonsense apart from a few things like the metadata monitoring and access. Interpreting normal aspects of life such as poor credit ratings limiting your opportunities as a giant government plot is silly.

        When poor credit ratings limit your life, it ain’t the gummint sending black helicopters. Usually it’s poor choices made by the individuals with the poor ratings that result in constrained circumstances.

      • “poor choices made by the individuals with the poor ratings that result in constrained circumstances”
        That sounds like exactly what the chinese are implementing.

      • @bjw Maxing out the credit card and then not being able to repay it, and then having credit restrictions applied isn’t exactly the same as having the secret police knocking on the door in the night because you criticised the president.

      • I love the smell of ‘whataboutism’ in the morning. Denying credit to poor risks is hardly of the same magnitude as the govenrnent deeming an individual recalcitrant and “unable to move even a single step,” Most dissidents I know are incoherent dickheads, incapable of revolution, or managing the inevitable counter-revolution that would follow.. Those with the capacity to destroy the Australian way of life join the Liberal Party. I imagine the same applies in China where they join the Communist. Party.

    • For Australia:

      Credit scores are checked against social media status (almost all micro-lenders use this)
      .

      Example please

      Access to renting is based on secret privately owned social tracked record
      .

      Care to elaborate?

      Access to loans, mobile phones, transport (uber), and almost anything requiring a credit score is tracked by a social credit system with no recourse or government oversight.
      .

      What loan/phone credit is based on a social credit (review?) system. Fair enough for uber. What is your problem with ubers review system?
      Btw, China’s plan is HARDLY akin to having to buy prepaid credit (in a burner!)

      Freedom of movement is tightly controlled on all citizens with poor social scores via bad debts (traffic infringements), marital and parental status, unemployment (benefits revoked if moving to low employment area), forced / mandated employment (work for dole) dictating where one can live, parole.
      .

      Um, I could feasibly live where I wanted.
      My traffic infringements – how do they affect that (maybe you shouldn’t run red lights, or speed etc?
      Marital / parental – eh?
      Fair enough re: Work for Dole and Dole – admittedly need reform
      Parole? Hmmm, Don’t break the law maybe? (Our laws can’t credibly be compared to Chinas can they? Nor our justice system)

      Choice of schools mandated and restricted based geographic location.
      .

      What LWSWP (spelling) said

      Social services of every nature restricted / granted based on gender, assets, ethnicity (Aboriginal Torres straight Islander), migrant, permanent etc.
      .

      Examples?

      All activities can be monitored including littering with removal of access to services and fines via mobile phone, metadata, camera tracking without requirement for warrant by almost 800 agencies (public and private).
      .

      Quelle horreure! Want to not be dobbed in for littering? DON’T LITTER! Thanks for reminding me I need to dob someone in for throwing like 100 cigarette butts out of their car near a waterway. And then for doing the same thing 200 m up the road,. And then for throwing rubbish at oncoming cars (3 offences! Yikes!)

      All internet, telephone, digital, and telephony activities monitored, stored and access provided to 800 agencies without warrant.

      Sure. Agree. VPN? Signal?

      Mandatory docking of pay for indiscretions.

      What?

      • Even StevenMEMBER

        +1 (and what LSWCHP said). Most other commentators on this one are nuts. Loonies. Comparing Western society conventions/security precautions to China. Lol. Watch out for those anal probing aliens folks!

  3. Interesting part will be if China dumps all potential students into this pool ad prevents them to travel overseas. Forcing them to attend local universities and boosting their own service industry while at same time punishing Oz for Manus.

    • Yes, it will apply to all. So no more eccentrics, gays, lesbian, depressives, edgy muso types, edgy writers etc etc. Creativity likely to fall even further for China. Think of all those western entrepreneurs like Musk, Jobs, Rubin etc etc who would not have been allowed till succeed if they had credit scores.

      Still it might have benefits in that it might filter out the sort of psychos that typically aspire to power.

  4. Western countries already have a similar system : it’s call bankruptcy, and you are restricted from travelling overseas while bankrupt. China doesn’t have personal bankruptcy law, and there is no claw-back provision if someone transfer their asset to another party, which is why action is needed. Unfortunately, since this is China, the government decided to turn it into a system for political control as well.

    The ‘social credit system’ applies to companies as well. So Disney will have to wipe Winnie the Pooh from existence to avoid a bad social rating.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/07/china-bans-winnie-the-pooh-film-to-stop-comparisons-to-president-xi

  5. No doubt the Chinese implementation will by ghastly and tyrannical, but the concept has some merit.

    For example, the ACT used to (and may still) have a problem with recidivist drunk drivers. I used to regularly see reports of people fronting the beak for the tenth or fifteenth offence, and they were never jailed because it would be bad for them. Bvgger the rest of the community, of course. And you have to remember, you don’t get picked up everytime you drive drunk, so these people were basically driving drunk all the time.

    Three of my relatives were killed by a drunk driver, so this p1ssed me off more than I can describe. The idea of people like this accruing a negative social score and suffering as a result sounds pretty damn good to me.

  6. This is when I first read about social credit cameras:

    14 April 2018

    China’s facial recognition cameras pick man out of crowd of 60,000

    https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/china-s-facial-recognition-cameras-pick-man-out-of-crowd-of-60-000-20180414-p4z9kp.html

    7 months later, NSW got social credit cameras:

    4 November 2018

    NSW police and crime agencies are preparing to use a new national facial recognition system to rapidly match pictures of people captured on CCTV with their driver’s licence photo, to detect criminals

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/surveillance-state-nsw-intensifies-citizen-tracking-20181019-p50atw.html

    • Yes, what they say in the video about scary changes in China seems to be true. Recently I met up with a friend who just got back from backpacking and she told me that many of the Chinese backpackers told similar stories of how oppressive it now feels, they are scared to say things (critical or edgy) online or even in public in case some censor picks them out, one said, “we are young, we want to just enjoy life and not have to worry about all that stuff, that’s why we came backpacking.”

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiRIN3Hyd_w

  7. DefinitelyNotTheHorribleScottMorrisonPM

    This is good for keeping the riff raff in line. You should get extra points for taking out IP mortgages and marking your child’s gender as X.

  8. adelaide_economistMEMBER

    While there is no doubt some justification for these sorts of information systems, the big question still remains as to their equal application… which we know won’t happen. There’s zero chance that a child of a well placed CCP princeling who ‘acts up’ is going to have that remain on their ‘social credit’ record. Similarly, plenty of innocent Tibetans and Uighurs will find themselves marked as ‘troublemakers’ when they haven’t put a foot wrong.

    The ‘whataboutism’ on here is a little sad. Yes, the western world is definitely in the grips of a similar over-reach of power and control enabled by terrorism fears, financial oppression and the unethical and unrestrained application of new technologies but – typically – here in Australia the focus is still on ‘wrongdoers’. I’m not saying the scope isn’t there for abuse of power and that’s a debate we need to have but if any of the people here complaining (who don’t already live in China or have Chinese citizenship) would prefer to live there… for real… then please do.

    So yeah no-one has clean hands but being blocked from travelling overseas because you haven’t paid for your child or ensuring you are held accountable for driving at 200km/hr through a school zone is (to anyone not pushing an obvious red flag wheelbarrow) very different to being made a non-person at will by an opaque state apparatus which issues its own version of the bible infused with ‘Xi Thought’ and locks up 20-year olds for singing the national anthem ‘disrespectfully’.

  9. ‘Social credit’, (while in Chinese context is not palatable), however it is an interesting concept, especially when you consider another form of credit currently in use, i.e money.

  10. The Traveling Wilbur

    I swear to God. If I still had a membership I’d resign it. Self-indulgent self-loathing misanthropes the vast majority of you. Jesus.