Experts agree Australia’s immigration program is “potentially catastrophic”

By Leith van Onselen

ABC’s Radio National ran a great half-hour segment late last week entitled “The Economics of Immigration”, which featured three featured guests, namely:

  • Dr Jane O’Sullivan, Honorary Senior Research Fellow, School of Agriculture and Food Sciences, Faculty of Science at the University of Queensland;
  • Ken Henry, former Secretary of the Australian Treasury and Chairman, National Australia Bank;
  • George Megalogenis, Journalist, political commentator and author; and
  • Professor Ian Goldin, Professor of Globalisation and Development and Director, Oxford Martin Programme on Technological and Economic Change, University of Oxford.

Of the four guests, Dr Jane O’Sullivan was brilliant and spoke by far the most sense. Dr Sullivan covered the cost to the environment and the folly of using GDP as an indicator of well being. She got her argument about infrastructure across well, dispelled the myth of immigration being all about bringing in skills, and hit the ageing furphy on the head:

“Every problem that we have to do with the environment and natural resource availability is made harder by more people. And certainly in Australia the State of the Environment reports have repeatedly identified population growth and population pressure as major threats to systems and species in Australia. And those indicators are really going backwards from one report to the next.

There’s really nothing to gain from having more people because wealth and prosperity is a per capita thing…”

George Megalogenis and Ken Henry were interesting in that they are both pro-immigration in principle, but admit that current settlement patterns into Sydney and Melbourne are potentially disastrous. They would like to see Australia decentralise, with migrants dispersing throughout Australia into the regions and smaller cities.

Here’s George Megalogenis:

“If most of the population growth that’s already in train for the next 10, 20, 30 years ends up in Sydney and Melbourne, we’ve got a problem. But if we are able to pull-off decentralisation – something we’ve been talking about for more than 100 years as a nation… – we may be able to fit the next 10 or 20 million people a lot easier than otherwise would be the case”…

“You look at Sydney’s topography and it can’t fit another million people easily. And you look at Melbourne’s, and it will fit in another million but at the expense of livability because they just keep pushing the boundary out. That next million, that next two million, that each city knows is in train could be divided quite neatly across not just the Eastern Seaboard but inland…”

“The default setting to me could potentially be catastrophic for the country over the next 20 years if people just end up in Melbourne and Sydney”.

Here’s Ken Henry:

“The Australian population’s growing at somewhere around about 350,000 to 400,000 a year… It’s also true that the cities are growing very strongly – Sydney and Melbourne are growing by around 100,000 people a year. And for fairly obvious reasons, new immigrants do tend to settle in areas of population concentration – cities – because that’s typically have been the places for easiest integration into the economy and integration into society…

“We think maybe 7 million more will fit, somehow, into Sydney and Melbourne by that time [mid-century] – they will be cities of 8 million each. Very large cities by international standards, Sydney and Melbourne…. But even then there will be something like 8 or 9 million living outside of Sydney and Melbourne”…

Professor Ian Goldin takes the typical globalist view arguing that immigration makes you “more and more skilled, more and more competitive, and it makes you more dynamic”, and that immigration is vital for Australia. But even he acknowledges that immigration “puts pressure on everything”:

“Absolutely it puts pressure on housing, it puts pressure on school places, it puts pressure on transport and other infrastructure, and so you need to make a decision as a society – do we want higher levels of growth and productivity, do we want to remain a competitive country, and how are we going to bear these costs. The one thing not do do is sweep these issues under the table and pretend they don’t exist [which Australia has done]. And I think this also applies to questions of resources – water, climate change, and so on… Are we prepared to tolerate these?…”

Clearly, Australia’s mass immigration program is destined to create massive problems for the nation, given the migrants are all but certain to settle primarily in Sydney and Melbourne, which are already crush-loaded.

The hope that migrants will decentralise to the regions was destroyed by the Productivity Commission’s (PC) recent Migrant Intake into Australia report, which revealed that immigrants are far more likely to settle in urban areas than people born in Australia. As shown in the next chart, 86% of immigrants lived in the major cities of Australia in 2011, whereas only 65% of the Australian-born population did:

ScreenHunter_17913 Mar. 13 16.00
Moreover, “of the immigrants living in capital cities in 2011, most lived in either Sydney or Melbourne, with 1.5 million residents of Sydney and 1.3 million residents of Melbourne born overseas”.

The PC also explicitly noted that:

  • “High rates of immigration put upward pressure on land and housing prices in Australia’s largest cities…”, and
  • “Immigration, as a major source of population growth in Australia, contributes to congestion in the major cities…”

Under Australia’s mass immigration, ‘Big Australia’ agenda, Sydney’s population is projected by the State Government to rise by 87,000 people per year (1,650 people each week) to 6.4 million over the next 20-years – effectively adding another Perth to the city’s population:

ScreenHunter_15562 Oct. 18 15.29

Melbourne’s population is projected by the State Government to balloon by 97,000 people per year (1,870 people each week) over the next 35 years to more than 8 million people – effectively adding 2.5 Adelaide’s to the city’s population over this time period:

ScreenHunter_15632 Oct. 23 12.16

With Australia’s major cities facing a catastrophe, and the hope for decentralisation nothing more than a pipe dream, the only solution is for the federal government to to slash Australia’s mass immigration program to sensible and sustainable levels.

Sadly, the Turnbull Government last week announced that it would maintain Australia’s permanent migrant intake at a record 205,000 people a year in 2017-18 without a whiff of opposition from Labor or the fake Greens. Hence, the gradual destruction of Australian living standards is set in stone for now.

I highly recommend that you listen to the Radio National podcast, which can be downloaded or streamed here.

[email protected]

Leith van Onselen

Leith van Onselen is Chief Economist at the MB Fund and MB Super. Leith has previously worked at the Australian Treasury, Victorian Treasury and Goldman Sachs.

Comments

  1. The Chinese tourist arrivals at record levels? I bet a great chunk are not tourists at all but simply here to work for illegal wages.

    Which makes the act of dumbing down Aussie degrees (for the sake of mass immigration) even more insane. Even if shops want cheap labour, why must the staff be given an Aussie passport and a Medicare card!

    • ABF stated that 5% of the 8 million tourist visas weee here to work illegally
      That’s about 400,000
      Predominantly Chinese & Indian but also others
      That’s in addition to the 2 million temporary visa holders also involved in extensive visa fraud
      We have the OECD’s most massive visa racket.
      2.4 million third world unskilled migrant guestworkers absolutely rorting every visa category and creating huge social & economic impact ; jobs, housing, congestion, net financial loss & outflow, crime, vice, underground black market labour rackets.

      Time for a Royal Commission.

  2. I heard a podcast from ABC featuring Mr David Marr and he claimed that a survey found that 70% of Aussies want more immigration!

    4 May 2017
    http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/bigideas/one-nation-and-the-politics-of-race/8493152

    (while he also said that a survey found 70% of Britons want less immigration)

    And then he kept ranting against Pauline and cheering on Globalism off the back of that “survey”.

    What a clown. How can most Aussies have the opposite view of most Britons?

    • ErmingtonPlumbing

      I used to like David Marr, but he’s gotten really feral of late,..I think he’s​ locked himself away in a virtue Signalling, circle jerking, echo chamber for so long that he is just totally incapable of seeing the reality on the ground.

      He’s got a good heart,…but he clearly lives in a fantasy world, full of self righteous indignation,…he is getting very predictable and very boring.

      • But what kind of survey says that most Aussies want more low-wage immigration from 3rd world slums?

        The irony is he pointed to gay weddings in Ireland, Holland, England, and says “we should legalise gay marriage too”. Or was he referring to a carbon tax in some nations?

        Well David, going by that, why should not AUS have the same immigration rate as Canada or Norway?

      • St JacquesMEMBER

        The old “decentralisation” fairy re-appears at the bottom of the garden. It just shows you the magical pudding theory that is the basis of this type of economic thinking. The whole point about the mass immigration scam is to support the RE bubbles and consumption in the capital cities and that would be undermined by any large scale decentralisation. Anyway, what the hell are all these people going to produce “out there” apart from unemployment? The way “to get ahead” in Australia is to buy RE in the capitals and especially Sydney and Melbourne. To invest your time, energy and money in anything else is to be a loser.

      • St Jacques
        Spot on!!!
        The only way to get real decentraisation is to sharply devalue the currency while constraining all wages and government expenditure thereby redistributing income away from cities into the more productive centres of the economy which will, over time, result in the establishment new competitive industries in those areas. As we all know that is not something that is being planned by anybody.
        So onward and upward with the current RE/immigration ponzi while at the same time brokering the sale of anything and everything productive to foreigners.

      • St JacquesMEMBER

        No need to constrain wages. They’re already slowly falling on their own against the real inflation rate once you take in housing costs, and threatening to collapse the whole ponzi system, hence the desperate pumping of the population ponzi

      • DominicMEMBER

        The solution is simple (if unpalatable to some):

        We need a massive housing crash in tandem with a prolonged and deep recession / depression. That should clear the decks fairly comprehensively.

        My only fear is that the immigrants will not fare too well in the circumstances — they will become scapegoats for the mess and it will likely get ugly. With any luck the citizens will realise who the real culprits are but it’s a vain hope.

    • I actually think that’s correct. There’s an I’m alright Jack mentality or a leftist mentality amongst most people from what I can see. Australians aren’t really Australian anymore. Young leftists think there’s going to be a crash, and boomers are eyeing a new RV.

      • St JacquesMEMBER

        It is fake leftism. You know, virtue signalling crap that you care whilst simultaneously selling the country from the young, the poor(er) and future generations while quietly benefiting from the pumping of the RE bubble.

      • SweeperMEMBER

        It’s not leftism. If the non-opinions about non-issues of these people was ignored (as they deserve to be), they would easily revert back to being corporate lawyers or wherever else where they should have been all along.

      • Yeah, I made a little post over the w/e when I realised that two generations have never known anything other than neoliberalism/globalism. They can see no other way for the world to work – and any counter-argument is literally Nazis. I truly think that the wheels have to come completely off (and STAY off for decades), before a new mindset takes hold.

        I have seen a similar thing in southern Europe, where despite everything there’s still a majority of youth who believe in the Euro and the magic population ponzi fairy. Again, because they’ve never known anything else. The alternatives are lampooned by the media and cut off at the legs (leftists like Podemos or Syriza) or are the aforementioned literal Nazis. This is despite all the evidence of how the Euro integration has done nothing but wreck their countries. Anyone old enough to remember life before the new currency is dismissed as clueless.

      • Even if they have been utterly screwed by house prices they still want mass immigration. They are correct it is the cheap credit that is the problem. But I think the prices can be fortified by restricting supply and pumping demand. I don’t get it. Someone gave them girly man pills in kindergarten. Gen x are the same but more from an apathetic and proud to be stupid bogan character. Boomers only care about themselves, a potent political force, bolstered by similar types from the younger generations.

  3. yeah right. let’s see the survey lol. it runs contrary to basically every other survey conducted on this question that shows that immigration isnt popular in the slightest.

  4. Why high immigration? For the libs, Gavin nailed it on the weekend: “because high immigration benefits retail, banks, and property owning cohorts. It also allows big business to keep wages lower and cut costs”. Why Labor support it is beyond me. Sadly, the Greens are moronic.

    • McPaddyMEMBER

      High immigration for capital. Low immigration for labour. But the ALP can’t see it or don’t care.

    • ErmingtonPlumbing

      Many in the Left have been simply confused by what the Neoliberal consensus actually means on the ground,…others (Blairites, Thatcherites, Clintonites, Keating) are fully complicit in its adoption and implementation.

      “For Bennites and the progressive left, internationalism is a vital component of the collective struggle for the rights of workers and the poor. The stronger workers are everywhere, they less easily they can be exploited by the rich through divide-and-rule policies.
      Globalisation, on the other hand, is premised on a different and very narrow kind of internationalism: one that protects the rights of the super-rich to drive down wages and workers’ rights by demanding the free movement of labor, while giving this economic elite the freedom to hide away their own profits in remote tax-havens.
      Globalisation, in other words, switched the battlefield of the class struggle from the nation state to the whole globe. It allowed the trans-national economic elite to stride the world taking advantage of every loophole they could find in the weakest nations’ laws and forcing other nations to follow suit. Meanwhile, the working and middle classes found themselves defenseless, largely trapped in their national and regional ghettoes, and turned against each other in a global free market.”

      • ErmingtonPlumbing

        “Many ordinary voters know deep in their hearts that there is something profoundly wrong with the neoliberal consensus and global economic order, but it has been left to the far right to offer them a lens through which to interpret their lived experience. By stepping aside, Corbyn and the real left allowed Johnson and Farage to forge the little Englander case for Brexit unchallenged.
        Second, voters are ever more distrustful of politicians. Cameron and Corbyn’s failure to be candid about their views on Europe only underscored the reasons to assume the worst about the political class. In a choice between the uncomfortable and perfunctory posturing of the Remain leaders and the passionate conviction of Johnson and Farage, people preferred fervour.
        Compromised politics
        This is a much wider phenomenon. Corbyn’s appeasement of the Blairites is another example of the deeply tainted, lesser-evilism politics that requires Bernie Sanders to tell his supporters to vote for Hillary Clinton, warmonger-in-chief to the military-industrial complex, to stop a loud-mouth billionaire thug, Donald Trump.
        Increasingly, people are sick of these endless compromises that perpetuate and intensify, rather than end, inequality and injustice. They simply don’t know what levers are left to them to change the ugly reality in front of them.
        The result is an increasingly febrile and polarised politics. Outcomes are much less certain, whether it is Corbyn becoming Labour leader, Sanders chasing Clinton all the way to the Democratic convention, or Trump being on the cusp of becoming US president.
        The old order is breaking down because it is so thoroughly discredited, and those who run it – a political and economic elite – are distrusted and despised like never before. The EU is very much part of the old order.”

        http://jfjfp.com/?p=84387

      • Coincidentally O’Sullivan is also involved with Sustainable Australia and Population Matters UK (Paul Ehrlich) whose pronouncements are not based on peer reviewed science but beliefs and ideology. In addition to creating angst about vaguely defined ‘immigrants’ and supposed runaway ‘population growth’ via the UN developed and inflated NOM (used by Population Matters sister organisation Migration Watch during Brexit), these groups were originally founded via Club of Rome’s fossil fuel and automotive oligarchs to present their extreme neo conservatism, neo liberalism, anti environment and eugenics as ‘liberal and environmental’.

  5. “I used to like David Marr, but he’s gotten really feral of late,.”

    Same goes for quite a few of our leftie brothers and sisters in the media. Quite a few are openly annoyed at the anti globalisation movement. It might be time to foreshore their jobs so they know how the rest of us workers feel.

    Ok, maybe that’s overt harsh. You’re right, most have good hearts, but much like many right wing commentators they don’t seem to care too much about the plight of low skilled (white) workers here. I mean many of us have been underpaid and denied super for over a decade, but even now the ABC tends to focus on international students and workers. At least they’re slowly waking up to the systematic abuse of workers in this country

    • SweeperMEMBER

      I have never liked David Marr. He has always been a neoliberal collaborator great at writing 20 pages in the monthly about nothing.
      The thing that always strikes me about these people is not their positions, it’s their total lack of interest about systemic, complicated yet underlying issues. How do you get to be like that? At least Megalogenis is interested in underlying issues.

    • bolstroodMEMBER

      It does not help the “Left’s” cause when the Unions side with big business , and sell out the workers.
      There is a very long history of Unions colluding with the Bosses. Labor’s ties to the unons ensures it will not be a voice for workers.
      An utter betrayal and disgrace.

      • SchillersMEMBER

        The CMFEU is wholeheartedly in favour of Australia’s mass migration program. Given the influence of the construction unions on ALP delegates and policy formation at State and Federal levels, it’s no surprise they are in lock step.
        Utter betrayal and disgrace, writ large.

      • The CFMEU can’t afford the possibility of a drop in the total amount of construction work being done that would put their members’ jobs and wages at risk.

        Our current construction industry is sized for producing about 230k residential units pa – drop immigration to UE’s 75K NOM for example, and you cut population growth by a third, so you cut demand for construction by a third, and you need to find new jobs for 300k construction workers.

    • Most of the left will never give a damn. They just want to be another elite. They are feeling rather threatened by Facebook and google at the moment. Do they start doing their job? No. Theyre calling for government intervention to make big IT less powerful. Their hatred for the white west is far too ingrained.

      • ErmingtonPlumbing

        Your confused Owen, the “elites of the left”,…the Professional class that run it,…Love Facebook, Google and the mertiocracy of Silicone Valley.
        They have stolen the instutions of the “Left” for their own Careerist ambitions, and have encouraged the embracing of Solidarity destroying, Identity Politics, IMO to keep the rank and file bickering and away from demanding a serious challenge to a Neoliberal consensus, from which they are beneficiarys.

        You wanna fix the West,… don’t go looking to the Right, they are guaranteed​ to disapoint.
        It the instutions of the “Left” that need to be retaken by comon working people.

        https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=38JNg210L24

    • kiwikarynMEMBER

      Just like the US Courts and some States seem to care more about the rights of non-citizens from other countries, than they do about the rights of their own citizens in their own country.

  6. boomengineeringMEMBER

    As per yesterdays post, Chatswood is following Cabramatta for Asian influence. But left Chatswood yesterday and went to Chinatown in the city for a meal. It was expensive and crap. So much for my approval of diversity enriching Australia.
    Yes I like multiculturalism but you need an even spread. WA had too many Poms years ago and that wasn’t good either..

    • Ronin8317MEMBER

      In Chinatown, the southern Chinese/Hong Kong style restaurants is gradually being replaced by northern-Chinese style restaurants. If you can eat spicy food, Spicy Joint in Chinatown is pretty good when I went there a few months ago, however the queue is very long.

      • boomengineeringMEMBER

        Thanks Ronin, yep we went past a long queue. maybe we should have joined it.

    • I debated with my cleaner that you only need enough immigration so you have a diversity of food choices. Anything beyond that is too much!

      • We’ve got a diversity of food choice now, and have done for decades, so I guess the right number here on out is zero,

      • ‘African food is the new Chinese’

        African food is the end of the line (after Africa what’s left? Going back to Europe? Good luck finding those immigrants), and plenty of African food in my area for more than a decade also – half a dozen injera bakeries in easy distance, for example.
        Stick a fork in the arse of this food diversity thing and turn it over. It’s done.

  7. I have been catching the same train line (Western Sydney) for 12 years now. The numbers went up, and occasionally down, but I was always able to get a seat. These past few months, though, having to stand almost every time.

    • McPaddyMEMBER

      I would say that’s not really a bad thing. Standing on a commuter train is pretty standard. That’s the capacity usage we should be aiming for. But not via immigration. By taking cars off the roads because the trains are so good. There’s the flaw in my argument!

  8. So that Megatool admits that even after 100 years of talking about it we haven’t been able to achieve effective decentralisation. And yet if we just keep flooding our country with immigrants they’ll suddenly all decide to go and live in Balranald and all will be well, because magic.

    And as for David Marr, well, the less said the better. The stupidity and venality of these people is astounding.

  9. SweeperMEMBER

    When will the penny drop for Megalogenis that the neoliberal model he defends as part of his Keating mania, is totally incompatible with a high immigration policy (unless he wants to see Australia become Brazil)

    • By the time Megalogenius twigs what the neoliberal model is at heart it’ll be too late probably.
      For years now, PMs, Premiers, Mayors, and the RE lobbyists have spruiked the Australian version of Brazil’s favelas.
      Unlike Brazil, our future slums meet current building standards. They’re not randomly constructed but may be flammable.
      All that is needed for the elites’ dream to come true is to import another 10 million plus and stack them high in the capital cities.
      Pay them some kind of living wage which gets up-cycled into the hands of the rentier class.
      The leaders of this country need some brain exercises.

    • The Patrician

      ??????
      When will the penny drop that high immigration is the centrepiece of the Megalogenis/Keating neoliberal model

      • The other is a huge consumption of cheap debt by households to fund consumption and asset bubbles!

  10. i always thought it was outrageous that the number one argument anyone can think of whenever diversity/multiculturalism comes up is “the food”. its almost as if we don’t live in the 21st century and there isnt this thing called “movable printed type” (let alone the internet) that allows for recipes to recorded and transported across the world to be prepared by anyone at any time.

    and for a country thats like 25% obese the last thing we should be structuring our immigration policy around is more ways to stuff our fat, greedy gobs with greasy ethnic cuisine.

    • Yes! Diversity and vibrancy through food FFS. My family are English descended farmers who grew dairy cattle and sugar cane on the north coast of NSW. Despite that, I’m a pretty dab hand at French provincial cooking because I can read and buy recipe books. It’s that easy, no need to import anybody to make a nice coq au vin.

      The idea that the only way to have a kebab is by importing lots of kebab makers from the muddle-east is ludicrous.

      • yeah its even funnier when you consider that a lot of ‘ethnic’ cuisine is very simple and is usually just some variation of poor quality ingredients that are doused heavily in spices and sauce to disguise the fact that they’re not very flavourful.

      • I’m waiting with mild horror for the next reasoning why moolty-coolty is such a good thing for you: you see – anglosaxon rumpy-pumpy is renewed for how drab and tasteless it is… For all intents and purposes it’s “lay there and think of England”, whereas immigrants… ooh… immigrants, what don’t they do, those immigrants! Imagine all the flavours of the world … in your mouth! Music to your ear… lubricant to your…!#$!]%(^*NO CARRIER

    • Hence my go-to line in these threads: These people think that multiculturalism means more Japanese restaurants in Artarmon.

      The price is always paid by Other People(TM)

    • billygoatMEMBER

      @Stagmal
      Ha Ha Yes I thought this as well. Pho anyone??
      $10 -$15 for bowl of spicy water with 79 cent rice noodles, scraps of meat $3 extra) and bunch basil. Sure it’s tasty and amusing to observe social pressure of ordering said dish – contentious pronunciation where the orderee (made that up – degree education) runs risk of being corrected by smug patron where as the wait staff don’t care – just point to the number. However I just wonder if that bowl of water & noodles is worth the trade off: seat in public transport, increased commute times, less jobs, crap degrees and insanely priced housing – rent, mortgaged or purchased out right???

      • The main reason I like pho is that it’s usually cheaper than the other stuff that’s available. Pretty much any food bought out can be described as way too much money for cheap ingredients.

        In the mean time, we’re a long way past the peak of Vietnamese immigration, and pho has been widely available for more than a decade, so no tradeoff exists between pho and public transport seats.

      • That’s like bloody everything. Also you forgot the biggest cost, rent. Also, how much do you think the material cost is for a $300 per head meal at Vue de Monde?

  11. 3.5 million mostly unskilled unproductive third world migrants in citizen & residency grants. (75% unskilled, almost half a net taxation health welfare & social burden.
    2 million temporary visa mostly unskilled
    85% no skill, no or little English, working illegally, fake papers, fake pretext, only here to steal, snag a PR and join the above.
    400k illegally working tourist visas (5% of 8 million tourist arrivals) only here to also work illegally.

    =>5.8 million mostly unskilled third world migrants
    91% concentrated in NSW & VIC
    86% concentration in Sydney & Melbourne
    4.6 million third world unskilled in both cities
    One in four people
    There’s your problem.

    Peter Dutton: wake up.

    • If you really think about it that way, then there’s the cause of your “budget emergency”.

      Too easy to solve the budget problem.

    • Thanks for reminding us how far down the rabbit hole we have traveled as a nation-economy.
      Peter Dutton is just the front for the idea that is neo-liberalism. If he wakes he’ll be pushed aside.
      The over-arching idea is to destroy the working and middle-class in Western countries.
      It might take a few more decades but the plan is in place.
      Import as many low-skilled and low-wage taking immigrants as possible and shove them in the cities.
      Feed the rentier-parasites and kill the host country.
      It’s a pity the youth are addicted to frivolous pursuits and those who know better say nothing.
      Third world rates rapid population growth via immigration needs to be seen for what it is – a trojan horse designed to undermine basic living standards so the resulting gap between the elite and the povs soothes the ego of the 1%ers and their fan club.

  12. The Patrician

    Megalogenis refuses to accept that a country with a stable population can be vibrant, productive and diverse.

    • SchillersMEMBER

      Exactly. Just like numerous countries in northern Europe. And Japan. Considered a basket case by the globalists due to it’s shrinking population and stagnant GDP. The funny thing is, Japan’s GDP growth per capita is just about the best in the world and way ahead of the Euro zone and America. The inconvenient truths are often the best.

      • Schiller,

        Yes, just back from Japan and if that country has massive ‘demographic’ they keep them very well hidden. Yes there are some very quiet regional towns that are a bit sleepy but it is worth keeping in mind that the population is still circa 126M which is 70M more than they had in the 1950s and as far as I know they did not discover massive domestic supplies of energy since then.

        The so called demographic challenge facing Australia is complete BS as a rationale for high rates of immigration.

        If and when a problem arises, that is when skill shortages, whatever they may be in the age of domestic robots, can be filled.

  13. George, George, George. “But if we are able to pull-off decentralisation – something we’ve been talking about for more than 100 years as a nation… – we may be able to fit the next 10 or 20 million people a lot easier than otherwise would be the case”…

    So not in 100 yrs yet you’re still thinking we can do it?? That is dumb, dumb, dumb!

    Those believing we can deal with those numbers are stupid.

    • McPaddyMEMBER

      Why do you think we can’t do it? Are there some unique challenges in Australia or are we just not very capable of achieving things like this due to some national character failing?

      • Our obsession with property is based on this model which has strengthened over those 100 years, everything else just revolves around it including immigration debate, people just cannot connect the dots if it means accepting that property prices should fall.

      • No, a political failing plus I doubt the country has the capacity to carry 50 mil on environmental grounds. Our politicians in my opinion are small minded and not capable of working out the challengers of the likes of infrastructure for starters. They have allowed the pop to grow to its present state and have done nothing about the lack of it and I doubt they have the interest. Pop growth for them is an easy GDP fix.

  14. The Patrician

    At no point does Megalogenis even consider reducing the immigration intake as an option

    • ErmingtonPlumbing

      Nor do they usually argue for a dramatically increased number,…”they” just kinda think it sets itself.

      Primarily they don’t want the discussion of the overall numbers, to take place in the public arena at all,…to them,.. it all about Racism.

      Rather than being labelled “Leftists”,.. they should be called, “radical progressives”​. Identity politics Partisans, so obsessed with the “feelings” of minorities that they tolerate no debate which may have the potential, to “offend” any minority group.

      Look at the way they moved against the plebasite on gay marriage,… that was to avoid any kind polarising debate that might be considered offensive to Homosexuals, the plebasite would have probably gotten up and the NLP moderates along with Labor and the Greens would have gotten the law changed and we wouldn’t even be going on about this distracting side issue any longer.
      The passionate Partisans on both sides of this issue,… would rather have us all Culture Waring on this issue indefinitely, rather than sorting it out and moving on to more important (Economic) issues.

      For the likes of David Marr,…it is Impossible for him, to see any discussion advocating lower immigration, as not to be coming from a Racist, bulling and intolerant mentality,… he’s blinded by the faith he has in his own correctness, a true Partisan warrior of identity Politics.

      • The Patrician

        “they” just kinda think it sets itself.”
        Correction: they SAY it sets itself. They know it is set by the government of the day.
        ala Peter Martin et al, These self-appointed gatekeepers of the truth tell us we have no choice in the matter.
        It is a profoundly anti-democratic deception.
        A treasonous neoliberal globalist lie.

  15. SchillersMEMBER

    ABC Radio National (621) had a good overview on their Sunday Extra program about Sydney’s transport problems with WestConnex (etc.) Lot’s of data, decent in depth interviews, etc. Not once however did they connect the dots to the root cause of the problem: rapid population growth outstripping the supply of transport infrastructure.
    It was a pathetic (and some would say deliberate) oversight from what was an otherwise decent report.

    • ErmingtonPlumbing

      Yes, it’s an elephant in the room that nobody dares to speak. I’ve got my second FEC this week,..and I’m bring it up,…big time,…Gulp.
      🙁

  16. There was a time, some years back, when debate at MB was even handed, however these days the resonance is deafening, it doesn’t seem to matter what the topic is the same voices combine in unison to amplify the message, it’s kind of sad really, I’d call this the death of diversity. I suspect that one day we’ll discover that all internet environments require diversity to flourish.
    From my own experience any organization that’s focused on serving the Internet’s “long tail” eventually dies from this over specialization, wrong information gets amplified, false facts are indistinguishable from true facts and reality becomes the causality. In a way it’s like watching water go down a drain it accelerates as it gets closer to the plug hole before simply disappearing….another Internet flame-out…not long now.

    • ErmingtonPlumbing

      So what do you think the “Number” of immigrants per year should be Smart?

      I think it should be reduced to 100 to 120 thousand per year, with a higher Percentage/Number of Refugees than what we take now.

      I’m all for diversity to,…but think the overall numbers per year should be reduced,…what’s your number?

      • This focus on a number is at the heart of the problem. Without a plan what point is there in selecting any number.
        Aussies simply don’t have a plan and that’s the core problem.
        After the war my Farther-in-law moved to the US from a small town in Northern Germany called Peenemuende, there’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Immigration of this team was advantageous to the US, but it didn’t happen without a plan. The US had the plan and backed their plan with sufficient capital to ensure that it succeeded.
        Where is Australia’s plan, where’s the committed capital (Political, social and monetary).

        • Given Australia doesn’t have a ‘plan’, then why should we persist with mass immigration? Show us the ‘plan’ before ramming tens-of-thousands of migrants into Sydney and Melbourne each year, thus making all of our problems worse.

      • The Patrician

        “This focus on a number is at the heart of the problem”
        Classic ponzist unresponsive obfuscation.
        For God’s sake don’t look at the numbers.
        Consider a grazier disregarding the carrying capacity of his farm when assessing increasing stock numbers. Or an ecologist ignoring the sustainable population of a particular species in a finite space.
        No, we are told, when it comes to managing our own species, don’t focus on the number…..because if we did we would be reducing the migration intake immediately.
        The laws of science and logic do not apply to these shysters.
        There are profits to be made.

      • drsmithyMEMBER

        After the war my Farther-in-law moved to the US from a small town in Northern Germany called Peenemuende, there’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Immigration of this team was advantageous to the US, but it didn’t happen without a plan. The US had the plan and backed their plan with sufficient capital to ensure that it succeeded.

        That was back in the days when Government still thought it could act in a useful fashion and was allowed to do so.

        Or “socialism” as it’s usually sneered about now.

        Weren’t you arguing on the weekend about the foolishness and futility of trying to influence “the market” ? “Leftist twaddle” and all that ?

      • Weren’t you arguing on the weekend about the foolishness and futility of trying to influence “the market” ? “Leftist twaddle” and all that ?
        The market is ultimately the people exercising their will.
        If they share a dream than collectively they will find a way to finance that dream. it’s a sad society that has no shared dream, however I suspect that Australia is morphing into just such a society.
        So I’d ask what’s the dream? Is there a believable plan in place to finance this dream?
        You might call this “government picking winners” but it doesn’t have to happen that way, because there are dozens social of mechanisms through which we share our dreams and ultimately fund our choices.
        Look at the wealth of the Catholic Church, this wealth was accumulated because individuals shared a dream AND financed that dream. This wealth was squandered when the dream faded to social irrelevance, kind of like whats happening in Australia.

      • drsmithyMEMBER

        Look at the wealth of the Catholic Church, this wealth was accumulated because individuals shared a dream AND financed that dream.

        LOL.

      • Catholic Church- that would be the ones “who say that as soon as the money clinks into the money chest, the soul flies out of purgatory.”

      • My point wrt the Catholic Church is that they successfully sold this dream of place in Heaven in exchange for earthly goods. Today the only dream they could hope to sell is a place in prison with guaranteed access to some of worlds vilest Pedophiles. Their brand is to say the least tarnished and the collective dream has turned into a social nightmare. But that’s not to say that we can’t sell a different dream heck some might even go so far as to say that the Dream born in the small town of Peenemuende became the global nightmare that defined a generation, it really all comes down to your frame of reference time, space etc.

      • ‘Catholic Church … successfully sold this dream of place in Heaven in exchange for earthly goods. ‘

        Yeah, but never a collective or shared dream – Medici popes and Johann Tetzel were definitely not sharing anything with parishoners.

      • “After the war my Farther-in-law moved to the US from a small town in Northern Germany called Peenemuende”

        One of Wener von Braun’s team?

    • Your comment makes absolutely no sense (not) Smart. I’ve read it twice and still don’t understand what you are harping on about.

      Someone that was “smart” would at least be able to articulate a point clearly and concisely.

      • Not sure how I can help, it would seem disrespectful; to suggest remedial education as a solution.
        I guess I could try repeating myself again and again and again, however I kinda prefer brevity.

    • Smart,

      What are the points you think are being missed in the chorus of agreement? A case for a big Australia?

      I think most of the avocado munchers, secret hipsters and inner urban dwellers infesting these threads love the idea of inner city diverse funky urban environments with lots of people from all corners of the globe. A bit like Blade Runner but without the rain.

      What most seem to object to is the absence of the public investment required to support such a funky future.

      Without that investment the result will be unpleasant but that investment is not going to happen while people insist that the FIRE sector should be free to exercise its credit creation as public money privileges for unproductive purposes like asset price speculation or entirely private productive purposes.

      If you want to fill the bucket with happy rats that cuddle rather than fight you need to allocate resources to the quality of the bucket.

      That is not happening.

      The answer lies in returning full control over public money to the public sector and ending the current dysfunctional model of extending a franchise over public money creation to licensed banks with ineffective and captured regulation.

      • I’m not really a Big Australia kind of guy, however I don’t want to see this country change to stupid anti immigrant policies for simply politically expedient reasons.
        The Australia that I hate is one where ever larger mines (CGN wells etc) are necessary to support an ever more detached local populace. There is no way to stop globalization no way at all, so we need to carve out our niche and becomes masters of the sector/sectors that WE decide are our future. Big mines are no future at all but unfortunately they are absolutely necessary if we want to live the good life without ever earning the foreign income by our own sweat or smarts.
        This “sustainable” Australia that simply limits immigration but allows mining to completely ruin our country isn’t a solution. I drive to Tamworth several times per year and get to see those ever expanding upper Hunter coal mines, in my minds eye I picture the beautiful horse studs of my youth while my eyes take in these ugly open cut scars on the landscape. This is not a future that Australia can afford WE must change our ways.

  17. HadronCollision

    Decentralisation without decent FTTN and or high speed rail

    LOLz, good luck with that

    Nothing to see here. Plus ca change

  18. The Patrician

    That Megalogenis continues to peddle the discredited “high immigration solves the aging population problem” lie, proves his lack of bona fides.

    • blacktwin997MEMBER

      Especially with the budget Paid Parental Visa clusterfuck. Not only does it age our population even more aggressively but it costs the taxpayer around $350K in today’s money for the privilege. All at a cost of only $10K to the oldie’s family as our onshore gift to the third world.

      Which is apparently STILL too expensive according to our most vocal ethnic group.

  19. Population is still the elephant in the room… this elephant needs to be put front and centre of the national debate.. any ideas how this can occur? PRIME TIME TV , MAAAAATE!

    Maybe develop a “Master Chef to feed 1000 mouths per hour” episode?
    or “So you think you can dance with 150 Chinamen”?
    “Dreambuild apartment to fit 32 bunk beds for illegals”
    730 New arrivals into Sydney today!
    The Block (of empty flats owned by chinamen)
    Neighbours, highrise slum Australia special
    Bordersecurity Sydney, overrun and shuts down.
    MegaStructures Sydney; How we built a million new apartments for the Chinese market!
    David Attenborough does Australia; Arrives in Sydney, drives 5 hours before he even spots a tree
    Topgear Population drag race Australia 2017!
    Great Railway journeys Newcastle to Sydney First Class!

    ?