China makes it official: No more coal

From the AFR:

China’s coal use will be permitted to grow by only 5 per cent over the next seven years after the world’s biggest polluter unveiled a cap on coal consumption for the first time.

The State Council – China’s Cabinet – said the country’s annual coal use would be halted at 4.2 billion tonnes by 2020.

Last year, China burned 4 billion tonnes of coal, with around 9 per cent being imported, according to the state-run China Daily.

That’s that, then.

Comments

    • ResearchtimeMEMBER

      FFS – just mentioning to a mate, you really have to question that Chinese FTA we agreed to the other day! Bonkers decision. Fancy a country stipulating that anything worth over $150m they can import workers for… a threshold any small company with a bit of debt can stop over these days!

      Worse – fancy a country fucking stupid enough to agree to such a provision!!!! Hell we give them our Antarctic share as well!!!!

      Public service run by a bunch of morons. We are firetrucked – and the opposition is no great shakes either – in fact they probably were responsible for 70% of that FTA agreement.

      To think I thought Abbott would be another Howard and change things around a bit… but what an ideologue. Really called that one wrong…

      We are so screwed!

      • Worse – fancy a country fucking stupid enough to agree to such a provision!!!

        Well blow me down if you’re not capable of a little passion yourself.

      • ResearchtimeMEMBER

        FFS – just mentioning to a mate, you really have to question that Chinese FTA we agreed to the other day! Bonkers decision. Fancy a country stipulating that anything worth over $150m they can import workers for… a threshold any small company with a bit of debt can stop over these days!

        Worse – fancy a country fucking stupid enough to agree to such a provision!!!! Hell we give them our Antarctic share as well!!!!

        Public service run by a bunch of morons. We are firetrucked – and the opposition is no great shakes either – in fact they probably were responsible for 70% of that FTA agreement. “When opportunity knocks, China opens the door” – your a complete and utter firetrucking tool Bill Shorten, you complete tosser… what we need is a real opposition with brains.

        To think I thought Abbott would be another Howard and change things around a bit… but what an ideologue. Really called that one wrong… and to think the Bishop is considered such a raging success for the Liberal Party, mind you she has twice the IQ of Plibersek.

        We are so screwed!

      • BTW Research it wasn’t the country that agreed to that, it was the adversely selected duopoly manipulated sociopaths that you get so upset at Stephen Morris when he attempts to lay bare to you this obvious conclusion…

      • ResearchtimeMEMBER

        SM – is just lefti verbiage with no practical solutions. In fact, a lot of his solutions would just simply make things worse. Consequently I never read anything he writes anymore… just skip it.

        Sorry, a bit despondent at present. We still live in one of the best countries – period. We still have total freedom, cricket, rugby and good South Australia Shiraz… so things are still pretty bloody good.

      • @RT

        Funny how you go about lambasting everyone about their leftist views. Now you’re up shit creek without a paddle thanks to Tones…. Good luck!

        The party to overturn is piece of BS legislation will win the election…

      • The party to overturn is piece of BS legislation will win the election

        Its not a piece of legislation flying fox its a treaty. Neither the Greens nor Labor could roll back a treaty, imagine what would happen to all the ones they hold dear?

      • Just to clarify, I didn’t agree to this, neither did the majority that are forced to pick from the duopoly at the ballot.

        The Laberal party, selling out Australians for over 30 yrs.

      • Mining BoganMEMBER

        Someont tell me the rules here. The treaty itself hasn’t been signed, just a agreement of intent or something like that.

        Can you back out at this stage?

      • We had our top negotiators on it. Using data from 2005 that they didn’t have time to update. Absolute f*cking traitors.

        http://www.theguardian.com/business/grogonomics/2014/nov/20/why-isnt-the-government-being-held-to-account-on-the-china-free-trade-deal

        You might think the government would have thought to update the modelling, given our level of trade with China has changed rather drastically since 2005:

        But no, they haven’t.

        Despite the negotiations going on for 10 years, the trade minister, Andrew Robb, told reporters there was “no time” to do new modelling because the deal was being done at “five minutes to midnight”.

        What this means is Robb and Abbott were more concerned about signing the deal on Monday so they could have a nice news story while the Chinese president, Xi Jinping, was in town, rather than wait till they had some idea whether the deal they were working towards was any good.

      • The minute someone starts with “leftie” comments, their IQ drops 20 points in their post and all I read is “blah blah blah”.

      • “We still have total freedom…”

        No we don’t. We have relative freedom but it’s been disappearing since September 2001.

      • Last couple of days I have been out and about in the world of News Limited and enjoying the comments on some of their web properties.

        Spectacular stuff.

        Mostly just politics as footy but the intensity/frothing is quite something.

        Makes everyone on MB – even when things get frisky – sound like a 19th century professorial lounge at Oxford.

        Something is afoot – the LNP faded beanie wearers are lashing out in every direction.

        I can sort of understand where they are coming from, it is not as though the ALP have demonstrated any comprehension of what is required what with Albo trying to claim the China-FTA as a left wing win (good grief) and Penny Wong promising to flog off the farmland even faster than the Libs.

        It is like we are coming to the end of the 1960s and the faceless men of the ALP have had a sign writer stencil on the door.

        “Don’t even think of changing anything Gough – we are all good”

        EDIT: And the pollies have ruled out electronic voting – they have seen what disruptive technology has done to too many cozy industries. Too risky? Gee the current system is wrecking the joint – could things get any worse?

        What about trying it on something that doesn’t matter much – like local council elections or votes on the flowers to be planted in the local park.

        http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/politics-news/risk-to-secret-ballots-too-great-for-electronic-voting-mps-decide/story-fn59nqld-1227129545308

      • GunnamattaMEMBER

        which is essentially why if we want reform, we will not be looking at the ALParatchiks.

        I want reform so I need to find something else.

        Within only the body of people I mix with on a day to day basis (and many of them are babyboomers even) I am of the firm view there are many more wanting reform too.

      • Hey RT..

        “Public service run by a bunch of morons”

        So the FTA is the bureaucrats fault not that of our halfwit PM or Andrew Robb …..

        I’m guessing if that any FTA signed under a left of center government would be the fault of the politicians then, overruling the faultless bureaucrats with their communist ideology?

      • Hey I Just noticed – B4 when after 1/4 second, I couldn’t recall Andrew Robs name I googled it;

        “Australian Tard Minster”

        Google knew exactly what I meant!

      • Ha ha ha. that’s a bit below the belt Lorax, he agreed with your feelings on the day Gough passed…

      • RT, wake up, can you hear us…..(slap, slap) wake up f***k you….phew.. that self induced coma you were in had us all worried! 🙂

  1. GunnamattaMEMBER

    Bloody good FTA that one Testostertone and the clown club signed up to at five minutes to midnight last week….

    These guys are utter frauds.

    Just imagine the Chinese side signing off and toasting away afterwards…….

    • Yes, there will be no tariffs on what they don’t want anymore.

      Abbott is looking more and more like “Mr Stupid” everyday. A choice between “Mr Boring” and “Mr Stupid” is pretty simple in most voters minds.

    • “Just imagine the Chinese side signing off and toasting away afterwards…….”

      Just imagine the laughs that they had after they sat down and realised they’d be negotiating with Robb.

      • General Disarray

        I imagine it will appear like a small chuckle when compared to the raucous howls that will emanate from various lobby groups when Robb signs us up to the TPP.

      • ResearchtimeMEMBER

        Can’t use India’s Gondwana coal in modern coal fired power stations 3D – they don’t work particularly very well; too much ash, and in some cases, too much fine silica. India may become a major coal consumer, but the vast majority of that coal will come from Australia, Indonesia, Bangladesh, SA, and Mozambique (maybe Tanzania if relevant infrastructure built). Most India’s coal resources located internally under forests, native peoples – will rail running eastward.

        Hence Indian interest in the Galilee Basin as well as coal resources in the Kimberley (deep and expensive). Maybe economics is not part of the equation??? I don’t know anymore – the whole thing is nuts…

      • Your final point has always been my view. What is needed, is needed. And Galilee is it.

        Both India and China need to ensure continued stability in their respective domestic coal production – important source of regional income and employment – but better grade resources exist here…

      • Both power and coal mining is largely state-owned in India, and it is very, very inefficient.

        Recently, Rio Tinto recently start investing in Indian coal mines, and maybe 3d1k will know whether that is linked to them selling the stakes in Mozambique coal mines for peanuts to an Indian conglomerate. (bought for 3.7billion from Riverdale, sold for 50 million)

    • yeah I’m finding it hard to believe too but then again something had to happen eventually as they basically live in a hell hole where you cannot breath the air

      • Offshore production processes that exacerbate airborne particulates.

        New technology to minimise particulate emissions, etc.

      • It gets that niceness from all our good-looking property investors, that’s why its the nicest, and everyone knows it, which is why everyone wants to be an Australian property investor – or second best buy our nice coal – but now I’m just giving Reusa time-off…

  2. What about Chinese-lady.com you guys got advertised here….are they in FTA and if so who’s gonna come out on top 🙂

  3. Don’t forget the comming Africa boom.

    A billion + in need of roads, bridges, schools ,hospitals,cars, household appliances and investment properties !!!!

    Buy up resource stocks whilst they are going cheap!

    😉

  4. Never saw that coming….not. We were taken hook, line and sinker. Expect every other concession given to us slowly wound back, while they pursue anything we gave them with full force. We got reemed well and good.

  5. johnathonbbbrown

    I think it is time to purge the parliaments of Australia of trade union officials, lawyers and teachers. They are in the majority just a pack of useless dickheads.
    And Abbott, if you could find his brain it would be bloody small, twisted and programmed by Chinks.

      • Imagine if it had been put to the vote or if there had been some sort of referendum beforehand, with a question like:

        “How would you like to hand over Australia to China, have them call all the shots and sue us if they want to?”

        And then: “But wait, it will be good for you!”

  6. Guys, Leviathian is missing in action, he was going to give us the benefit of his knowlege about some new technology which is going to sideline thermal coal and LNG for energy generation.
    Both 3D and myself are keen to know what it is. Does any one know where he is??. Maybe the Chinese have access to this technology hence the wind down in coal. Maybe India could go down the same path WW

    • Australian parliament. There’ll be 24/7 sitting and the hot air will power the energy needs of billions. Nothing will change in Australia so nothing lost — BTW we won’t own the parliament any more by then.

      • MAte good to see you are picking up the language”well blow me down” they wont know who you are when you are back in Europe.WW

      • The computational properties of graphene are of no relevance here. We are talking about pure energy storage. The on/off as you mentioned is what is being looked at for data.

        Here is Samsungs announcement from earlier in the year.

        http://global.samsungtomorrow.com/?p=35576

        Scotts announced similar breakthrough using alternative methods.

      • @migtronix

        This is a fascinating point you raise.

        The shipping container nuclear reactors were being discussed during a degree I did in International Relations. The US / EU were looking into “black box” nuclear reactors which could be installed into grids and power them for ten years etc. These were tamper proof etc and could then be replaced. The idea being to capture the same energy reliance as exists in the current petro paradigm.

        The Russians of course have their floating nuclear stations powering their Artic drilling operations, they all have them on their nuclear carriers and subs of course.

        However yes – Thorium would allow this scenario to be played out without risk.

        In fact the VERY REASON the world went down the Uranium pathway was specifically because there was NO NUCLEAR requirement and hence no weapons to be had from Thorium reactors.

        The irony.

    • So let me get this straight – China has announced it is capping all coal growth and is relying instead on alternative energy sources – and you come into that thread and start joking about how there is no such thing.

      I mean – maybe China made a mistake and they WILL NEED to continue their expansion in coal consumption as there are no alternatives…..no wait – you asinine tard.

      Really.

      China has already announced half a dozen new Nuclear stations – on top of this they have pledged to have LTFR
      Reactors online within 5 years. Yes – FIVE YEARS.

      But you wouldn’t have a single CLUE what that is would you – because you’re a friggen GENIUS.

      Thorium reactors as they are known (light water fast breeders) have no, read that again ZERO, radioactive waste, and can take in as their fuel source spent nuclear waste from reactors or weapons (Thorium bring the primary fuel which is one of the most abundant minerals there is).

      The BIGGEST impediments to these have been the corrosive issues with salt – HOWEVER over the past decade in molten salt solar and concentrated energy systems these have largely been solved – so not much work to do there.

      But you – YOU GENIUS – knew all about these reactors and Chinas plans.

      The current price of energy from solar in India per unit of energy is now CHEAPER THAN AUSTRALIAN COAL.

      What ?

      Yes. but you knew that as well didn’t you.

      Finally the Scottish University AND Samsung BOTH announced this year that they have had the same break throughs in INDUSTRIAL production of GRAPHENE at prices comparable to any storage today.

      That means a total revolution in global energy storage from renewable energies which will radically transform the entire global energy market.

      Stanford has also announced what is seen as the holy grail of fossil fuel and the ability to transform Co2 from the atmosphere DIRECTLY into methane via hydrogen generation from SOLAR using the catalyst Nickel Cadmium at room temperature at NORMAL PRESSURE

      This means extracting Co2 directly from the atmosphere for fossil fuel generation for any means required.

      But of COURSE you knew all about Nickel Cadmium didn’t you with your condescending remarks.

      A Swiss company with a Norwegian has just purchased one of the biggest factory in the US 2,100 hectares, and has announced after ten years of research they are about to deploy batteries for city wide grid storage of energy – yup – so basically you can store energy for a grid from renewables in a city.

      Another absolute GAME CHANGER

      Now there is just 5 or 6 technologies you have absolutely no idea about (you don’t know much granted, so a bit harsh) but of course I could go on, and on, and on about the revolutions in renewable energy technology – there are at least a dozen more I can think of off the top of my head.

      Hope that stinging on your face doesn’t smart too much, eye watering hey.

      • Where do you find out about all this stuff?
        Are you in the industry or do you just know where to look?

      • Lev,

        I’m with you but – being actively involved in assessing investments in this space – I must warn you against equating current in-lab success and even pilot plants with tomorrows solutions – some will be, most definitely – but at least 80%, won’t.

        LTFR is planned to be ready in 5 years, sure but development does not always/seldom ever complies with plans.

        Some have suggested the sheer cost of even conventional nuke (see Hinckley @ 180/MWh & 25 Billion squid and Levy County $US20 Billion for less than half the capacity of Hinckley) – renders the development of alt nuke tech almost unfeasible …

        But – that said, let’s not forget;

        – US CO2 Emissions have ALREADY PEAKED in 2006, (yes b4 the GFC 3d, WW & RT)
        – China’s intensity is already plummeting and multiple sources have it peaking prior to 2030

        My point is that all is far from lost already, CCGT (gas), nuke, Wind, PV, increasing storage and energy efficiency have already delivered to above results.

        We don’t need yet to be commercialized technology to reverse CO2 growth.

        We just gotta stop/reduce burning dirt.

        But that said – the new tech is way cool and picking the winners is the next great technological opportunity, (but our halfwit PM is doing his best to make sure we miss out).

      • Like I said, maybe the Chinese have access to some of these technologies, maybe India as well, should events move to your time table say 5 years for a change over, our coal and gas industries are dead in the water. I am up to speed with all these technologies, but I thought you may have something special, doesnt look like it. WW

      • Thanks Lev. Pretty much the direction(s) I thought you were coming from.

        On scale? Probably not in my lifetime.

      • On graphene I’ve been hearing about using water held in fullerenes that can causes the water molecules to change state – related to water tension – and this can be used like a switch for computation but holding more than two states.

      • @HRHOLDEN

        The Chinese Government announced two years ago that they were investing a “WHAT EVER IT TAKES” volume of money into Thorium to have multiple reactors online within the decade. They announced last year they were five years ahead of schedule.

        Thorium reactors HAVE ALREADY been tested, built, and operational. They are not theoretical.

        The six new nuclear facilities are all already under construction with American partners.

        Japan is looking to restart their entire nuclear industry which is the primary focus BEHIND Abes snap election.

        Outside of that – your general comments are absolutely correct – see Germany, Norway, Denmark.

        The fact is Australia could transition away from primary industry in mining etc and with out low population, high tech, first world economy and unlimited natural energy resources be Co2 free in my view with two decades.

      • Cheers Lev and HR. Great info, half of which is new to me.

        Also India has been heavily involved in research into Thorium reactors.

        Before you smack down the lack of tech in these countries (india and china), remember they both have fairly advanced military industrial complexes, including aero and space tech.

        We are still shipping dirt.

      • footsore – get The Scientific Amemerican and American Scientist Magazines – They’ll blow your mind on all sorts of stuff. The latest stuff on multiple universes really sends me around the curve. Anyway great stuff in all sorts of fields. Thern wander the internet wherever your scientific mind takes you

        Bloody Thorium!!!!! For reasons associated with soemthing I imported i ran into the Thorium question about thirty years ago. It was astounding! It wasn’t pursued because you couldn’t make weapns out of it! It was a bit of a sleeping dog for years and I could never figure out why Aus didn’t pick up the ball long ago. Geez if silly old Flawse knew about this stuff some bright spark around universities or our Nuclear research would? No? Strewth! GE had quite a programne for a while but not sure what happened to it
        Kirk Sorenson
        http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=16&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCsQtwIwBTgK&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ted.com%2Ftalks%2Fkirk_sorensen_thorium_an_alternative_nuclear_fuel&ei=fZdtVILTKcXbmgWvi4GICw&usg=AFQjCNEAZwaKumAIkTHkR-uwtlhp2CvYqw&bvm=bv.80185997,d.cGU
        Recently the Chinese set about Thorium research in a way as it seems only China can
        http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100026863/china-going-for-broke-on-thorium-nuclear-power-and-good-luck-to-them/

        Frankly i was really seriously pissed when we decided to waste all that damned money on a National Download Porn Faster Network, Cheques in the mail, etc and before with all the stuff was wasted everywhere while real science in Australia was driven to the ditch – decades ago! Don’t get me started on the ‘Green’ part in all this.
        For all teh money we have wasted we could have had a $100 Billion dollar Thoresearch project! We might have actually achieved something and been once again a world leader in something!

        BTW they are talking about Thorium reactors in things the size of shipping containers that could sit in and power every small town!

      • BTW they are talking about Thorium reactors in things the size of shipping containers that could sit in and power every small town

        Or space colonies.

      • Yeah! The mind boggles!

        The speed of change of knowledge is just amazing.

        I remember writing an essay in 1957 arguling that man couldn’t walk on the moon because it was very fine dust miles deep. That was a throey – we knew NOTHING about it. Now we’re figuring on multiple universes – perhaps we are just one of trillions of universes? Corblimey!
        Then its fascinating to see how much the ancients did figure out – sometimes I feel even dumber!

    • No, you are not up to speed with any of these technologies – your asinine original comment shows that clearly and absolutely.

      You have come on here big noting yourself and patronising people in the most puerile, condescending manner and have been slapped back down – and now claim “I knew that !”

      Rubbish. Just risible behaviour of an imbecile.

      • HR, in the context of catastrophic global warming if i recall correctly. My son is now 17 – born almost bang on the beginning of the Great Pause. I have no doubt that within his lifetime there will be no warming that carries with it, armageddon like consequences. Zero. Nada.

        I have made provision, hopefully, for his financial needs. But who knows?

        If i have fears, they lie in geopolitical uncertainty, prospect for resource wars, migration conflicts and destruction of the global financial system as we currently understand it.

        …still in Chile ?

      • 3D, the absence of a “great pause” in spite of a significant reduction in solar forcing over the last decade and a half suggests you have no genuine interest in a balanced assessment. I understand why you might persist with this misleading line though.

    • but hey 3d & WW,

      Make no mistake – the days of thermal coal growth/investment opportunities are indeed numbed.

      LNG will have a slot for a while yet though …

      Hey 3d – re your comment the other day, why exactly, are you not worried own child’s future?

      • why exactly, are you not worried own child’s future?

        He gets enough of a cheque from Gina to buy an IP or two.

      • @FF,

        Gina’s offspring look like Kzin after being starved in that training facility to long…. a feast might be on soon…

      • @flawse

        How so? I am just repeating what 3d has said. He has set his kid up with a nice apartment over looking the swan river and other properties etc etc

      • Hey 3d – re your comment the other day, why exactly, are you not worried own child’s future?

        Because he’s rich.

        As the minebot well knows, the impact of climate change, even on the fairly dramatic end of the scale, likely to manifest in the next 50-100 years won’t cause too much inconvenience to people with means (in and of itself).

        The social and political upheaval from the other ~95% of the world suffering those impacts, however, might. Which is why he’s concerned about “geopolitical uncertainty, prospect for resource wars, migration conflicts and destruction of the global financial system”.

  7. Most of this FTA mess was Labor party, tony just added the stupidity cherry.

    Thank the Laberal party you voted for!

    Voters is stupid.

    • Agree aj but these dozy bastards wanted a smiling pic for the end of the disastrously appalling waste of money that is always the G20
      Still it’s part of the bread and circuses society and media. We’ve really only ourselves to blame.

  8. The only question is whether Oz politicians are a) really that dumb, b) so corrupt they don’t give a shit selling out the vast majority of Australians, or c) all of the above.

  9. Australia has just signed a FTA with a country that doesnt want what we sell.

    Thats a spectacularly one sided document our morons have agreed too.

    • Que?

      Iron ore, coal, gas, uranium, wheat, dairy, fresh produce, meat, aquiculture, Sydney property, Queensland resorts…

      • Buying a country is so much cheaper than a war and you only get the good bits.

        All jokes aside, yes we do have other products but they are not what this government is focusing on.

        Coal’s good for humanity remember?

      • Iron ore, ha ! Coal (please see thread title), gas (please speak to Putin), Uranium (please speak to thorium), fresh produce, meat aquaculture (please see unlimited commercial purchases with 457 visas for total vertical market integration and ZERO profits to Australia outside of tax).

        Basically – you mentioned nothing.

      • ” My son is now 17 – born almost bang on the beginning of the Great Pause. I have no doubt that within his lifetime there will be no warming that carries with it, armageddon like consequences. Zero. Nada.”

        Astonishing.

        How on EARTH can you come to this conclusion other than to merely rely on your own intellect being superior to all modern science, or, alternatively to be so supremely ignorant of all facts to the extent, that either way, total and delusional exaggerations of your own capacity, or dangerous and wilful ignorance to the point of endangering your own children.

        I find it extraordinary that you could even have children, but to then so callously disregard their well being out of sheer bloody ignorance or arrogance just stupefying.

        Perhaps it is time to put away the unceasing cognitive bias, the unyielding push to confirm your position and for once in your ENTIRE LIFE actually READ what the science states about global warming. It is absolutely UNEQUIVOCAL on what will happen – totally.

        IT takes a very special kind of denial, an insurmountable level of ignorance / arrogance to not see what has already happened in the past decade of environmental disasters caused DIRECTLY by global warming. The absolute tip of the iceberg. The apex and already we are seeing devastating storms across Europe, United States, Australia, Asia and India. Devastating droughts and floods. Unprecedented. And science has told us this are set to increase exponentially.

        Within 30 years of business as usual we will see collapse of large areas of modern civilization. That warning, as a consensus of the scientific community has been repeated, reaffirmed and as of THIS YEAR upgraded to being even more imminent.

        The greatest threats facing humanity are temperature shift in temperate food bowl regions of the world. A two degree shift in average global temperatures may mean a 7 degree shift in some areas – and none in others. What people like yourself FAIL to comprehend is that a simple 2 degree shift is enough to wipe out entire bands of food production across the planet. Wheat or rice simply can not be grown with a shift of that magnitude.

        It is NOT a problem of rising seas, nor of acidification. It is a problem of temperature shift on the ecosystem. Small minute shifts which mean ENTIRE bands of food production, habitat, water courses, fisheries are lost entirely in what would normally take thousands of years allowing for forests, savannahs, deserts etc to move and its animals adapt occurs in decades killing absolutely everything.

        If you bothered to look away from the arrogance which dictates that you know everything already and actually READ the work of James Hansen then you would be aware that he is UNEQUIVOCAL in his position that there is very limited scope for survival beyond 2050 without radical war time footing style addressing of the issues.

        If we get a three degree rising in global temperatures then we are staring down the barrel of systemic world wide collapse of human civilisation within 50 years. Period. You can try and think otherwise, but that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the science, none. You can claim otherwise ALL YOU LIKE, but that has nothing to do with the science. The science is set, the science is fact. Your position is derived from refusing to address the truth and the reality and instead rely on your own belief that you are somehow intellectually superior to all the science on the planet. More superior than the greatest collective scientific effort EVER put forward by man kind by a factor of TEN – the IPCC – ten times more scientific effort than any other project ever put forward, on any subject ever – but you know better.

        It absolutely beggars belief that you could write something so astonishingly stupid.

        You have no idea, Absolutely NONE. And you risk your children’s life because you are TOO PROUD to pick up a simple book and read the truth, instead preferring to believe that your own gut instinct MUST be right, because its yours.

  10. Reading this thread and the stupidity of the situation, while listening to Slayer does not put me in a good mental state.

  11. Look all the industry lobbyists [neoliberal corporatist] said it was the correct thing to do….

    The main points of neo-liberalism include:

    THE RULE OF THE MARKET. Liberating “free” enterprise or private enterprise from any bonds imposed by the government (the state) no matter how much social damage this causes. Greater openness to international trade and investment, as in NAFTA. Reduce wages by de-unionizing workers and eliminating workers’ rights that had been won over many years of struggle. No more price controls. All in all, total freedom of movement for capital, goods and services. To convince us this is good for us, they say “an unregulated market is the best way to increase economic growth, which will ultimately benefit everyone.” It’s like Reagan’s “supply-side” and “trickle-down” economics – but somehow the wealth didn’t trickle down very much.

    CUTTING PUBLIC EXPENDITURE FOR SOCIAL SERVICES like education and health care. REDUCING THE SAFETY-NET FOR THE POOR, and even maintenance of roads, bridges, water supply – again in the name of reducing government’s role. Of course, they don’t oppose government subsidies and tax benefits for business.

    DEREGULATION. Reduce government regulation of everything that could diminsh profits, including protecting the environmentand safety on the job.

    PRIVATIZATION. Sell state-owned enterprises, goods and services to private investors. This includes banks, key industries, railroads, toll highways, electricity, schools, hospitals and even fresh water. Although usually done in the name of greater efficiency, which is often needed, privatization has mainly had the effect of concentrating wealth even more in a few hands and making the public pay even more for its needs.

    ELIMINATING THE CONCEPT OF “THE PUBLIC GOOD” or “COMMUNITY” and replacing it with “individual responsibility.” Pressuring the poorest people in a society to find solutions to their lack of health care, education and social security all by themselves – then blaming them, if they fail, as “lazy.”

    Its not like we don’t have decades of in your face ratchet effect agency to observe. Like this gem…

    “Philosophy, Politics and Economics (PPE) is a popular interdisciplinary undergraduate/post-graduate degree which combines study from the three disciplines. The first institution to offer degrees in PPE was the University of Oxford and this particular course has produced a significant number of notable graduates such as David Cameron, the current Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, Ed Miliband, the current Leader of the Opposition, and Tony Abbott, the current Prime Minister of Australia,”

    “Geoffrey Evans an Oxford fellow in politics and a senior tutor critiques that the Oxford course’s success and consequent over-demand is a self-perpetuating feature of those in front of and behind the scenes in national administration, in stating “all in all, it’s how the class system works”. In the current economic system he bemoans the unavoidable inequalities besetting admissions and thereby enviable recruitment prospects of successful graduates. The argument itself intended as a paternalistic ethical reflection on how governments and peoples can perpetuate social stratification.[2]”

    Skippy…. insert Devo’s Corporate Anthem here

    • As a ‘conservative’ Skippy I’m trying to find stuff to argue with and having trouble!
      One thing I would remark on re individual responsibility.
      The Left, partticularly in the form of Gough Whitlam, reckoned the State should do everything for everybody. As an ideal OK.
      Well they tried and threw money at it all…..and failed. meanwhile the average person started to care less because the guvmnt was looking after everything.

      It’s this last bit that is the real core of all that’s wrong. Note I’m not saying it’s all the fault of the Left. It’s just a fact and a very regrettable one.
      Somehow society lacks a core belief in each other. Our sense of a community only seems to be expressed through some BS TV show or other.
      I dunno – everything just seems bullshit these days – or is it just old flawse? Maybe I’m just tired! I think you have simplified the ‘individual responsibility’ thing into a Lefty slogan. I think it’s complex but something we should be looking at really carefully – but then again i think it’s all too late.
      The answers lie back in time.

      • @Flawse,

        Nothing about neoliberalism is conservative, at least what it used to generally mean in the post WWII era. Although neoliberalism is on the far right of the political scale i.e. property and markets proceed all other considerations, government is just vestigial tool of the aforementioned preferences.

        This is what gets me going as the old boys I know are pretty gobsmacked and disgusted too, tho cling to some romantic notions of a correction at some point.

        Persoanly I leave the left out of it as there is no left to speck of, our ALP is quite similar to the American democratic party, 3rd rail. Embraces neoliberal market fundamentalism yet retains some ID political remnants for the voter base and distinction from the Republicans on voting day.

        It seems the mid 70s was a focal point for a major inflection point wrt sociopolitical economic agency. Divergence of productivity to wages, quality of jobs, executive remuneration to wages [from 20 to 1 – to hundreds or thousands to 1], monetarist policy’s [still on going imo, Taylor rule], dumbing down of education [privatizing education], revolving door between public and private sectors, $$$$ equals votes, removal of impediments to financial malfeasance, the change in addressing citizens to consumers, et al.

        Persoanly I think citizens need to put down the political tribalism and have a frank and honest moment of reflection and move on from there, take not only the polies to task but those that benefit from our laws and society.

        If there is one book I could recommend its Econned by Yves Smith, as a primer along with, It Takes a Pillage, by Nomi Prins and The Buyout of America, by Josh Kosman. These three books will basically cover all the important bases and contribute mightily to one’s understanding of these circumstances we are now in.

        http://www.economicpopulist.org/content/econned-yves-smiths-book-books

        Skippy… that keeps it pretty sanguine with out getting lost in the rabbit warren, like getting in to the whole – The Mont Pèlerin Society: The ultimate neoliberal Trojan horse.

        Walter Lippmann, the American journalist and CFR co-founder whose ideas led to the birth of the Mont Pèlerin Society.

        Far from being merely a “debate club”, the Mont Pèlerin Society is an elite globalist organization that played a leading role in shaping the economic policies of several countries and in creating numerous think-tanks devoted to propagating the theories of the Chicago and Austrian schools of economics.

      • The Left, partticularly in the form of Gough Whitlam, reckoned the State should do everything for everybody.

        No, they don’t. This is a caricature and a straw man fallacy.

        Somehow society lacks a core belief in each other. Our sense of a community only seems to be expressed through some BS TV show or other.

        That’s because the neoliberal right have spent the last 30-odd years promoting greed over generosity, selfishness over altruism, competition over cooperation, ignorance over knowledge, superstition over enlightenment, consumption over conservation, etc, etc. Then they try to sell this hyper-individualism as a good thing by labelling it “self reliance” and “personal responsibility”.

      • Then they try to sell this hyper-individualism as a good thing by labelling it “self reliance” and “personal responsibility”

        Ha!!! Tell that to the 60 year olds who’ve been on council housing paying $10/months for the last 30 years! Or every single family on family allowances/assistance of some kind, or every corporation that gets a .gov no-bid recurring contract, or all the “jobs” that are “created” as a result of government thought-bubbles *cough* childcare certifications *cough* that drive up the cost of the service that government then has to subsidise!!! Ha ah ha!

        Hyperindividualism is the absolute last thing corporations want, they want you to need their goods and be swayed by peer pressure – individuals are their enemy. You are not their enemy. Nor skippy, nor Alex…

      • Ha!!! Tell that to the 60 year olds who’ve been on council housing paying $10/months for the last 30 years! Or every single family on family allowances/assistance of some kind, or every corporation that gets a .gov no-bid recurring contract, or all the “jobs” that are “created” as a result of government thought-bubbles *cough* childcare certifications *cough* that drive up the cost of the service that government then has to subsidise!!! Ha ah ha!
        Mkay but, are you going to meaningfully address Smithy’s point?

        Hyperindividualism is the absolute last thing corporations want, they want you to need their goods and be swayed by peer pressure – individuals are their enemy. You are not their enemy. Nor skippy, nor Alex…
        So the intellectual spawn of Ayn Rand are above peer pressure? I doubt it Mig. The point Smithy and Skippy are trying to make is that we have moved way too far away from a healthy balanced concern for our community, environment and world… We are not Borg and we are probably less assimilated into the neoliberal corporate fantasy world than you.

      • Hyperindividualism is the absolute last thing corporations want, they want you to need their goods and be swayed by peer pressure – individuals are their enemy.

        Watch “Century of Self”.

    • You forgot the last para Skip:

      DUMB AS FUCK. This blight on humanity believes this shit actually works and subscribes to the insanity theory of repeating the same mistake and expecting a different result. Also confuses score with admiration.

    • Then they try to sell this hyper-individualism as a good thing by labelling it “self reliance” and “personal responsibility”

      Ha!!! Tell that to the 60 year olds who’ve been on council housing paying $10/months for the last 30 years! Or every single family on family allowances/assistance of some kind, or every corporation that gets a .gov no-bid recurring contract, or all the “jobs” that are “created” as a result of government thought-bubbles *cough* childcare certifications *cough* that drive up the cost of the serviced that government then has to subsidise!!! Ha ah ha!

      Hyperindividualism is the absolute last thing corporations want, they want to need their goods and be swayed by peer pressure – individuals are their enemy. You are not their enemy. Nor skippy, nor Alex…

      • They why do corporatist fund it mig-o?

        Why is it a key identifying component in every aspect, in everything, from literature [ridged Kantian] to advertising [atomized consumer preferences].

        What the hell do you think *** rational homo economicus *** or *** self ownership *** is all about [!!!!]. That humanity is reductive reduced to a set of hypothetical bi-polar transactions in a barter world matrix.

        Let shed a bit of history on that… eh.

        “Far from being merely a “debate club”, the Mont Pèlerin Society is an elite globalist organization that played a leading role in shaping the economic policies of several countries and in creating numerous think-tanks devoted to propagating the theories of the Chicago and Austrian schools of economics. In this article, Memehunter delves into the origins and goals of the MPS, and analyzes its impact on postwar economic policies.

        The globalist origins of the Mont Pèlerin Society: Lippmann, Rappard, and Rockefeller money

        Although the birth of the Mont Pèlerin Society (MPS) officially took place in 1947, its conception can be traced back to 1938. Capitalizing on American journalist Walter Lippmann’s visit to Paris, French right-wing philosopher Louis Rougier decided to organize a “Walter Lippmann Colloquium” (WLC) that would build upon the ideas presented in Lippmann’s recent book The Good Society and promote the neoliberal ideology that was threatened by the emergence of fascist and communist regimes in Europe.

        Lippmann (1889-1974), who came from an upper-class German-Jewish background, was initially very influenced by the views of the Fabian Society: he was a founder and president of the Harvard Socialist Club as a student. Soon, Lippmann began moving in elite circles. Already in 1917, he was working with “colonel” Edward Mandell House as an advisor to President Woodrow Wilson and participated in drafting the famous “Fourteen Points” speech.

        Together with House, Lippmann was one of the founding members of the Council on Foreign Relations. Lippmann, who viewed journalism as “intelligence work”, was very interested in the manipulation of public opinion, as evidenced by his book by that same title published in 1922. His political views apparently changed in the 1930s, and he openly began discussing liberalism as a viable alternative to socialism.

        Upon hearing the news about Lippmann’s visit, Rougier, who already in 1934 had received a grant from the Rockefeller Foundation to investigate totalitarianism in Central Europe, contacted Swiss academic William Rappard to discuss a list of attendees for the colloquium. Rappard, a hardcore globalist, had known both Lippmann and House for several years (he taught at Harvard in 1911-12), and had been instrumental in convincing Wilson to choose Geneva for the seat of the League of Nations in 1920. Rappard’s globalist achievements are celebrated nowadays in the form of the Center William Rappard, the headquarters of the World Trade Organization in Geneva.

        Rappard was also the co-founder of the Graduate Institute for International Studies in Geneva. The Institute for International Studies, which hosted several professors and visiting scholars associated with the neoliberal or Austrian ideologies, such as Friedrich von Hayek, Ludwig von Mises, Michael Heilperin, and Wilhelm Röpke, was almost entirely funded by the Rockefeller Foundation. Not surprisingly, Rougier’s list of invitees to the WLC included, in addition to the above-mentioned scholars, the name of Tracy B. Kittredge, a longtime trustee of the Rockefeller Foundation.

        As pointed out in The Road from Mont Pèlerin, the list of attendees to the WLC reads like a who’s who of postwar economic and political prominence: we find a future Nobel Prize (Hayek), the first general secretary of the Organization for European Economic Cooperation (Robert Marjolin), De Gaulle’s financial adviser (Jacques Rueff), the director of the Bank of International Settlements (Roger Auboin) and its manager (Marcel van Zeeland), Ronald Reagan’s adviser on the Star Wars project (Stephan T. Possony), and a prominent French philosopher (Raymond Aron), to name but a few.”

        Which is pretty funny when libertarians gab on about banks and corporatist when its entire funding and history is replete with its involvement.

        Skippy… you bag Jesuits and yet on the other hand, engage in head shrinking that makes their machinations look timid.

      • They why do corporatist fund it mig-o?

        Why is it a key identifying component in every aspect, in everything, from literature [ridged Kantian] to advertising [atomized consumer preferences].

        What the hell do you think *** rational homo economicus *** or *** self ownership *** is all about [!!!!]. That humanity is reductive reduced to a set of hypothetical bi-polar transactions in a barter world matrix.

        Let shed a bit of history on that… eh.

        The globalist origins of the Mont Pèlerin Society: Lippmann, Rappard, and Rockefeller money

        http://thedailyknell.wordpress.com/2012/10/29/the-mont-pelerin-society-the-ultimate-neoliberal-trojan-horse/

        Which is pretty funny when libertarians gab on about banks and corporatist when its entire funding and history is replete with its involvement.

        Skippy… you bag Jesuits and yet on the other hand, engage in head shrinking that makes their machinations look timid.

      • I’d love to know why government swings that way I’m guessing because it’s been bought and controlled, but you point at MPS and say “see it wasn’t government it was libertarians”. Without government MPS are do nothing nobodies that no one would listen to. Sorta like the MMT stripe.

        Reductive barter? Bwaaahaaahaahaa! What do you think swap contracts are?

  12. “Coal has got a very big future, for decades to come.”

    Prime Minister Tony Abbott

    (What a visionary)

    • Tony is a ‘will to power’ type. He thinks if he wants something enough, clenches his jaw hard enough, and attacks anyone who disagrees, then his wishes will come true.

      This is a repeated failing of authoritarian ‘hard men’ throughout history. They ALWAYS get blindsided.

  13. Just a general observation – is it worth deleting comments at day end when it plays havoc with formatting?

    • The Traveling Wilbur

      Depends whose comments they are that are being deleted, especially if they are written by [end of sentence deleted for reasons of public discourse and basic standards].

      And I’m sure you can figure out what the rest of that sentence was supposed to be.

  14. Ha ha ha! Who’d a thunk that betting one’s economy on a historically cyclical sector that’s about to enter into major structural decline was a bad idea.

    Perhaps we can get Bishop to lay into Mr Xi like she did to Obama. Ha ha!

  15. Can your reductive logic get anymore ludicrous mig-o.

    Without the state aka government you just get feudalism, now the issue always seems to boil down to Totalitarianism [over controlling state] or Fascism [blend of state and corporations over controlling the pop].

    Some define the new paradigm as inverted totalitarianism i.e.

    ” inverted totalitarianism is described as a system where corporations have corrupted and subverted democracy and where economics trumps politics.[5] In inverted totalitarianism, every natural resource and every living being is commodified and exploited to collapse as the citizenry are lulled and manipulated into surrendering their liberties and their participation in government through excess consumerism and sensationalism.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism

    I would like to highlight the term *** rationalization *** as it applies to Free Market Fundamentalism e.g. libertarianism.

    All one has to do in validating my point, is see, what mobs fund the libertarian movement.

    Barter theory is an ex nihilo assumption based on what its authors speculated about human nature, not based on the totality of human history or evidenced based observations e.g. the conclusion proceeds the question. Menger’s theory is entirely theoretical and only observed as a logic argument in absentia historical reality’s.

    Skippy… Mig-o swap contracts are not prima facie evidence of barter theory’s validity, that kinda of rationality is exactly how we got here in the first place.