New Years Weekend Links: January 1-3, 2022

‘Barwon Heads Road Connewarre, facing West 2040Hrs, 31 December 2021’

Macro & Markets

Americas

Europa

Asia

Terra Specufestor

 …and furthermore….

…and Covid….

 

Comments

    • There’s nothing at all stopping you from walking into your doctor and saying “I’d like to be a man.” You could have done it prior to 2022. It takes work but if a man is what you want to be, then a man you can be.

      Best of luck.

  1. Whew – just remembered the coopers cans in the freezer.

    Anyway, let us all live the MB lesson we learned from 2021: Kill All Fatties!

  2. Hugh PavletichMEMBER

    UPDATE … Omicron science, good news … Dr John Campbell … Youtube

    … It seems the Aussies are waking up to the realities of the Omicron variant … if the front page of this mornings Sydney Morning Herald is any guide (my free article limit is exceeded) …

    Sydney Morning Herald

    https://www.smh.com.au/

    Opinion
    Coronavirus pandemic
    Welcome to 2022, the year this pandemic ends

    Omicron science, good news … Dr John Campbell … Youtube

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EDBJBmlvXY

    Omicron, orientation and questions … Dr John Campbell … Youtube

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTftlM0MJUk&t=1s

    I’m hoping the pandemic will be essentially over in a few weeks and move into an endemic phase. The question is of course, how will the next month pan out? … read and view more via hyperlink above …

    Dr John Campbell … Youtube

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF9IOB2TExg3QIBupFtBDxg

    • Muttafukaburrasaurus.MEMBER

      Wait a fortnight and see how accepting the general public are. Your average Sydney & Melbournite is a QR coded sheep without the survival instincts of a moth.
      Once they realise that everyone they know is getting sick (tests positive, at least), stores are low of toilet paper and heaven forbid the internet fails…Mass Panic.

      • blindjusticeMEMBER

        an alternative would be that they see everyone getting a mild cold/flu or no symptoms and ease up
        probably a mix of both scenarios

        • Muttafukaburrasaurus.MEMBER

          I understand what they hope to do, and agree this really is the Goldilocks moment for Australia to open. Conditions are favourable to let it spread during summer (outdoor living, heat and humidity) ; and Omicron is a mild CV19 variant.
          BUT- There has never been a corona virus vaccine, and I have caught more than 1 cold in my life and will certainly catch more.
          I don’t think the average metropolitan punter of limited means has the capacity to absorb ANY negative shock.
          Hope I’m wrong, But I’ve got money that our incompetent self serving political leadership is unable to manage public expectations, let alone a sub-optimal reality.
          P.S- He is not even good at Marketing

    • Arthur Schopenhauer

      Hmmm 🤔

      While Mick’s got a Coat reckons the Pandemic 😷 is going to end this year.

      18 months ™️

      • 3 billion COVID inflections in 3 months guarantees ?multiple? new variants. Are we feeling lucky?

        • Muttafukaburrasaurus.MEMBER

          I agree.
          Far to much media about Omicron becoming a benign endemic ‘cold’, It’s equally likely to become far worse.
          There is a growing reservoir of infected people to exponentially increase the probability of mutations which are solely evolving towards increased Viral transmission and replication… The media, UN, Fauci and all humans are irrelevant beyond performing a host organism function.
          Vaccines will fade as the saviour in MSM narratives, whilst it’s already happened in reality.

          • In afraid you’ll be right. The elites have sold us a dud once again. Faith in institutions to take a battering once again.

          • Muttafukaburrasaurus.MEMBER

            Can anyone think of a creature less suited to leadership than a Pentecostal marketing manager with a narcissistic personality disorder?

          • The Traveling Wilbur 🙉🙈🙊

            Yes. At least half of the current cabinet and at least one recent previous PM. You may need to rephrase the question.

    • Mining BoganMEMBER

      I expect the Fair Work Commission to have a heavy workload this year. HCWs aren’t going to put up with being forced to go into work if 1. There’s sick family at home and 2. They be worried about infecting patients.

      I wonder if they expect them to buy their own RAT kits as well.

      Delmicron. Nobody could have seen that coming. Nature has a sense if humour. Probably payback for wiping out a whole bunch of her species.

    • A good article.

      It demonstrates a few things I have said years before this latest covid bizo:

      Govt must take a broader view and ensure that the system has plenty of redundancy (that means backup and not firing people) built into it.

      If you normally need 100 nurses then it might be cheapest to hire exactly 100 immigrants and bingo you have got your cheap nurses. But a better way would be to have 200 nurses which included part-time nurses, some all-rounders who can do admin, etc, and includes many retired nurses who are kept up-to-date by 1 day per month work and could be recalled in an emergency.

      Flying in nurses from other countries (where this is a surplus presumably) might be the cheapest way to get a nurse, but it is not a reliable way in a crisis. A better way would be to have local training systems based within hospitals (like it used to be done) which could be ramped-up in a crisis, or when the supply of cheap overseas labour is in some way unavailable.

      Govt must stop choosing the cheap-arse method that most benefits its cronies and instead do what is best overall for its citizens.

      Of course the underlying problem is voters, who must demand this, and take their vote away until they get it.

      • Anders Andersen

        “Flying in nurses from other countries (where this is a surplus presumably) …..” Why would you presume that? I didn’t realise 3rd world countries like the Philippines etc had extra money to train up medical staff so they end up with a surplus! If we only have enough staff to keep our medical system going on an easy day, why would we expect the countries we import them from to have an excess.

        Typical western attitude, cut taxes then rape and pillage 3rd world countries of their trained staff. NICE.

      • Think you maybe grossly underestimating the size of the health care sector workforce and 100 ‘migrants’ is a drop in the ocean, i.e. according to JobOutlook the Health Care & Social assistance cohort is 1.5 million +.

        Further, according to OECD long term forecasts parsing out temporary resident churn over has our working age population ageing and passing the sweet spot like elsewhere, hence, increased dependency ratios and budgetary pressures due to more pensioners; temporary workers take up the slack and more importantly, are net financial budget contributors during their time in Oz.

        Finally, not sure how Australians can be all authoritarian demanding e.g. Filipino nurses and carers should not leave their nation to work in Australia, yet they are welcomed in the US, EU etc. while Australian trained health care workers can be found in significant numbers in the UK etc.? Swings and roundabouts?

        • Anders Andersen

          “Finally, not sure how Australians can be all authoritarian demanding e.g. Filipino nurses and carers should not leave their nation to work in Australia, yet they are welcomed in the US, EU etc. while Australian trained health care workers can be found in significant numbers in the UK etc.? Swings and roundabouts?”

          Andrew, you put a twist on that, that wasn’t there. I didn’t say that they shouldn’t leave, I said the west, as you just pointed out poaches nurses etc from 3rd world countries. Pointing out how we have nurses in the UK etc also proves my point. Two of my daughters friends graduated from Uni (nursing & teaching) and neither could get grad jobs in Australia due to the lack of experience. The nurse had family in Columbia, so she went back there to work, the teacher got a 3 yr contract in Scotland. I have a number of nursing friends and Filipinos come here in large numbers and the gov hospital system loves it as they get experienced nurses they don’t have to train making it difficult for grads to get a start like they would have 30 yrs ago. Engineering is similar except it doesn’t have a health care impact back in that country, though it makes it difficult for eng grads to get a start. Industry is fckg lazy and sees no obligation to provide opportunities which is why business now loves the open borders idea, same with IT. Ask any IT guy here what Atlassian pays 5 yr experienced IT guys from o/s.

        • “underestimating the size”
          Ain’t the 100 over and above the ones already here or is it we have none ATM and the 100 are the first and only lot to arrive.

          “working age population”
          So we bring then in so we can retire at 60(ish) and all sit around on our fat backsides for the next 30(ish) or so years. What happens when those 100 hit retirement age? Do we then bring in 200

      • So you want us to step back and have a good hard look at our health system to make sure that it can serve all the people all the time. Those days are not here just yet, it seems obvious that we will have to suffer even more before we come to our senses.

  3. Totes BeWokeMEMBER

    “That means construction companies tendering for government projects, worth more than $20million, will have to reserve places for women in the male dominated sector where men make up 97.5 per cent of the workforce…….Under the Australia-first policy, women will be required to perform at least three per cent of labour hours for a contractor that wins the tender…..But women will be required to perform more than a third – or 35 per cent – of management, supervisory and specialist hours of work on the site”

    2.5%, 3%, 35%,

    3% experience to draw 35% of the premier jobs…..

    = 100% DISCRIMINATION.

    lol. Wipe Labor out of Australian politics.

    If women were suited to construction, wouldn’t the employers already be preferencing them?

    Where’s this going? Traffic lollipop chicks promoted to 30 story project managers?

    • DodgydamoMEMBER

      On large commercial projects the 3% probably already met by most (eg final clean team and traffic control) and it’s common for one of ten of on site management to be female (greater ratio of off site management) so these targets are not a massive stretch. Some of the most capable PMs I’ve worked with were female but also some of the worst. However this equally be said of male PMs but hey don’t let any of that stop an it’s all Labour’s fault rant.

      • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

        So, allow it to continue as is. Employment by merit.

        Why aren’t we having quota’s for bricklaying, underground mining, garbage collection, front line military?

        Why only the premium jobs?

        Only Labor could misunderstand it this badly. Only Labor could present something so politically toxic.

        My motive is better politics. That means I call it as it is. Labor are destroying Australian politics. Ergo, Labor are destroying Australia.

        • Anders Andersen

          “Employment by merit.”

          hahahahaha. How is it that we have employment by merit? We prohibited women from certain occupations for fkging centuries and what went wrong? Nothing, so I guess we can do the same now and no negative result! AMAZING.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            …..”so I guess we can do the same now and no negative result! AMAZING.”….

            No we can’t do it now because that would be unfair to males LIVING NOW.

            …..”you sickening piece of excrement”…..

            You’ve taken things to a new level on MB. I’ve not seen such comments before. You should be proud.

            Do you have an argument to back your vile comments or not?

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            I laugh at how passionate feminists are with absolutely zero to back their views.

            You’re not getting your way. All you’re doing is wrecking society, women, men and the labor party.

            You’re not getting your way, BECAUSE IT DOESN’T WORK.

        • Anders Andersen

          “You’re not getting your way, BECAUSE IT DOESN’T WORK.”

          What doesn’t work? Equality? As to it being unfair to men working now, well, hate to point the bleeding obvious to you but men have their present advantage because of past discrimination that has put women at a disadvantage, so stop your whining.

          Vile? You aught to talk! You’re nothing but a keep things just as they are astroturfer.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            “but men have their present advantage because of past discrimination that has put women at a disadvantage”

            Could you elaborate on this please? I don’t think there’s a skerrick of truth to it.

          • The far right moron luvvy hijack club

            Could I just point out here that almost alone in the Australian media space Macrobusiness own Gunnamatta – as he was – touched on a far large issue than the number women in construction just over a year ago.

            Your public services – and I am one – are essentially controlled by women. These organisations feel they have a right to openly discriminate against men, they think they have an entitlement to do so, and they pretty openly like to dilute the male side of the equation with the camping fraternity, and very recent migrants to offload the ‘old white male’ end of the spectrum.

            As Gunna pointed out and often says (and I know the guy) they got rid of a load of old male psychopaths, and all they did was change the sex of the psychopaths.

            Think about the numbers in the charts. Is that the way we want our public services staffed?

            Media, Gender & Employment: Reframing the Narrative (somewhat)
            https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2020/10/reframe/

            Gunna actually put a few noses out of joint with that piece

          • Your public services – and I am one – are essentially controlled by women.

            The PS isn’t controlled by teachers and nurses.

        • Anders Andersen

          “Could you elaborate on this please? I don’t think there’s a skerrick of truth to it.”

          Easy, look at trades in construction for example. Any teenage male chasing an apprenticeship will not have to prove himself based on his sex, it will just be assumed that as a male he’ll be right. Any young female will face the will she last the distance, will she be capable of handling tools (whereas with the lad it will just be assumed he’ll learn fast enough) etc. Just having any profession which is dominated by men there is no need to prove yourself because of your sex. The door is already half open for you as a male. The only areas where women now have equal access as men would be medicine and law. In nursing men make up just 11%, yet hold a greater number of management positions as a % in NSW. This info was from a NSW study (lead author was male).

          In aviation women are always coping the “she got the job because she’s female. Men nearly always value what personality traits they have, that are mirrored back at them, women in my opinion are generally better suited as they’re just no competitive as men with having to be right and not willing to backtrack and concede they got it wrong until it’s bleedly obvious.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            We are finally getting somewhere. I agree.

            I also assume women are not going to be the best candidate for trades, and would suggest that only a tiny handful of women would be any better than the middle 60% band of the men. And none would be in the top 10%.

            Discrimination? I don’t think so. Reality. Natural capability. Spatial awareness, strength, resilience, mechanical aptitude etc etc etc.

            Have you watched SAS? I bet you say to yourself…”wow that Jana is a strong resilient individual”

            She is, but she’s an extraordinary women, an Olympian, but yet still didn’t shine overall, just shone because she’s a women. Don’t get me wrong. I hugely admired her, because I knew she was probably more gutsy than any of the men to achieve what she did physically.

            I return to my point. Women excel at certain things. Men excel at certain things. Let the best candidate get the job.

            Admit it. After being given equal opportunity (in it’s true sense) and more, women have failed to achieve what they thought they would, entirely because the feminists grossly overestimated the capability of women vs men.

            So, now you want quota’s that push more capable men out to give opportunity to less capable women in roles they’re often not suited to.

            Why?

            Then also consider that these roles in my original post aren’t on the coal face, they’re the cream jobs at the top, and not even on site. Fair? Obviously not.

            It’s gone too far, and it’s time men disagreed.

        • Anders Andersen

          “I also assume women are not going to be the best candidate for trades, and would suggest that only a tiny handful of women would be any better than the middle 60% band of the men. And none would be in the top 10%.”

          How do you make that assumption? What do you think a dentist is (my middle daughter’s one), but a tradie with a degree. You should see tooth extractions! How about orthopaedic surgeons, ever watched a youtube vid of them at work with mallets and circular bone saws etc?

          Btw, what is your experience in trades?

          Totes, you are biased and are just blind to it, girls are turned away from this sort of sh!t from toddler days towards dolls etc because……of biases like yours.

          Edit: “Admit it. After being given equal opportunity (in it’s true sense) and more, women have failed to achieve what they thought they would, entirely because the feminists grossly overestimated the capability of women vs men.”

          Produce your list and stop hiding from it, you coward! Nice that you finally came out of the cupboard as a sexist p!g by admitting you believe men are superior to women. I pity your wife and children regardless of their sex, if you have any. You are a poor role model for sons or daughters.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            Dentistry?

            FFS. Are you seriously comparing this to trades?

            I give up. Seriously, you people live in a delusional bubble.

          • “Seriously, you people live in a delusional bubble.”
            Goodness, now there’s some irony for you.

        • Anders Andersen

          Yes dentistry, small tool use just like the watch makers of old! And you need to be a lot more precise than with normal trade tools.

      • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

        You don’t think I’ve got personal experience of women in a few industries too?

        In general. Women excel in certain things. Men excel in certain things.

        Why are we pretending that’s not true?

        I want the best for my offspring. BOTH MALE AND FEMALE. Australia is heading to a very very sick society thanks to Labor.

        • Anders Andersen

          Evidence free zone again, aren’t you Totes!

          You make me want to vomit you sickening piece of excrement.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            Evidence is everywhere you look. It’s our lived experience. That’s why you’re so angry.

            Under 15 boys teams beating national women’s teams. Wouldn’t private enterprise elevate the right person to the right role because that’s the most efficient and profitable? I could argue this all day. You’ve presented no argument at all. Just really nasty comments I couldn’t care less about.

            I just want to argue the points so I can more understand you people. Not be insulted by angry feminists.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            drsmithy

            Yeah nah, maybe back in grandma’s day, but not since extreme left HR has existed, along with merit based selection, psychometric testing (skewed to women), portfolios, and male and female interview panels.

            Let’s talk about today. Not a century ago.

            Jack and Jill apply for the same job (for the exercise let’s ignore that with quota’s, Jack’s application will go in the bin). Walk me through how the discrimination against Jill works.

            It’s time for you to admit, the real discrimination is against men.

          • Let’s talk about today.

            Sure. About a year ago my wife got nearly a 20% pay increase (equivalent to tens of thousands of dollars, so not exactly pocket change) overnight to bring her salary in line with her male counterparts doing the same job.

            This was a direct result of the kind of activity (deliberate placement of women into upper management, followed by a company-wide pay review) that you are getting the vapours about.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            We haven’t started talking about pay. Let’s leave that (the hours worked gap) for later.

            Just answer the Jack and Jill question.

          • Just answer the Jack and Jill question.

            🙄

            Old mate gets the application, goes – like you – “women can’t do X” and bins it.

            Alternatively if he’s got some sort of interviewing quota to meet, he might do an interview, and then hire someone else.

            I just want to argue the points so I can more understand you people.

            You have no desire to understand anything. You want to state a conclusion, then construct some chain of reasoning backwards from it, and dismiss anyone who points out why it’s wrong, or offers an alternative.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            “Old mate gets the application, goes – like you – “women can’t do X” and bins it.”

            Old mate? The extreme female-biased chicks in HR you mean?

          • HR doesn’t make hiring decisions, it just facilitates the process.

            FMD, have you had a job in the last few decades ?

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            “HR doesn’t make hiring decisions, it just facilitates the process.”

            That includes processing the applications, short listing, equal opportunity and affirmative bias.

            You are full of sht.

          • You know a “shortlist” from HR will have literally dozens, of not hundreds, of Resumes, right ?

            I can guarantee you they’re not checking names to try and guess what the applicants’ plumbing looks like.

            You’re lucky if they’ve done a sanity check of skills and employment eligibility.

            It’s clear you haven’t been involved in a hiring process remotely recently, if ever.

        • Anders Andersen

          ” It’s our lived experience”

          OMG, this is your evidence! You are pathetic.

          Oh, btw, ANGRY!!!! Hypocrite lololololol

        • Anders Andersen

          Sorry Tokes for having a go at you! The penny just dropped, women are good at having babies, cleaning up, looking after the men folk, minding children (until they get to Uni then men should take over) etc. men are good at science things like engineering etc.

          Yeah, I get it now.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            You haven’t addressed a single thing I’ve raised, but now want to reinvent my argument?

            Present your argument at the election, and see if we’ll (majority of sensible women and men) vote for it.

            Feminists have become a bad joke. Most women, even young women, want you to shut up.

            I make particular note you’ve ignored to respond to…….“greater ratio of off site management”………”So the higher paid, better located, less transient, air conditioned, less noisy, dusty, dirty and dangerous, but far less skilled jobs!!!!…premier jobs…not bricklaying, front line military, or underground mining”

            Do women want equality in deaths and injury at work? Work related disease?

            Of course not. They just want a free ride to the cream.

            You people are so dishonest I feel dirty interacting.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            I don’t have any problem with women. I have a problem with blatant discrimination.

            There are no poor people in Australia.

            It’s getting more and more clear neither of you have an argument to back your view.

            How embarrassing to walk around screaming “disadvantage” when in fact, the only people being disadvantaged are men, and you can’t counter argue it, but instead carry on the way you both have.

            Time to review what you stand for and why. It’s embarrassing to watch.

          • “There are no poor people in Australia.”
            You definitely exist in an impervious “bubble”.

      • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

        “greater ratio of off site management”

        So the higher paid, better located, less transient, air conditioned, less noisy, dusty, dirty and dangerous, but far less skilled jobs!!!!

        Awesome.

        Translation. “We want premium jobs. As opposed to…”we want equity in construction”.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            Labor misreading what the electorate expect yet again.

            I know plenty of women who hate this BS.

            Almost always, the most opposed women are uber intelligent, and successful.

            That is, they don’t want to watch undeserved free rides either.

          • Anders Andersen

            Gavin, can you inform me when we got to the equality of opportunity, and up to that point when we had no equality of opportunity, what was the cost to society and what’s different this time around, except that it will be men who for once miss out?

          • The madness of equality of outcome vs equality of opportunity continues.

            Not nearly as mad as thinking phrases like “boys club” exist for no reason.

            What’s “equality of opportunity”, anyway ? A rich kid and a poor kid going to the same school ?

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            “except that it will be men who for once miss out?”

            Let me get this right. Because your grandmother was discriminated against, you think you can justify falsely elevating yourself into the cream jobs, while holding men down?

            Is that your argument?

            It’s hilarious feminists believe their own BS.

        • Anders Andersen

          “There are no poor people in Australia.”
          You really are ignorant

          Btw, where’s your list of what men and women are supposedly better suited to doing. I want to see it, don’t be a chicken sh!t, put your list up or are you just too scared to?.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            There are lists everywhere. You have just chosen throughout your life to pretend they don’t exist.

            Go and have a look at the Olympics records.

            Tip: women and men columns are always separate because they don’t compete with each other for obvious AND MEASURABLE reasons everyone but feminists understand and accept.

            Why do you want to pretend there aren’t extreme differences between male and female capabilities? Why? I have to know.

            Show me a female SAS soldier.

            ““There are no poor people in Australia.”
            You really are ignorant”

            Nope. I’m a realist, and when I dissect and present something, you’ll find I’m right. Like just last week, turns out the dole isn’t $44 a day. It’s far more. And I can easily live on that. Ergo, I conclude there are no poor people in Australia.

            You people live in such a privileged bubble you don’t know what’s real and what’s not. You don’t even mentally explore it, but instead question lists of male vs female capability.

          • LOL. We’re not talking about the Olympics and SAS, we’re talking about backoffice admin jobs, and you’re getting hysterical because women will occupy 1/3 of them.

            Pretty clear the real problem is women in the workforce at all. Presumably because that’s not what they’re good at.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            “we’re talking about backoffice admin jobs”

            No we’re not. We’re talking about the cream jobs women want to be given favours to get….

            “or 35 per cent – of management, supervisory and specialist hours of work”

          • “or 35 per cent – of management, supervisory and specialist hours of work”

            That’s backoffice.

            Maybe you could elaborate on how the unique abilities of men demonstrated the SAS and at the Olympics make them superior at “management, supervisory and specialist” roles.

        • Anders Andersen

          Totes, you shouldn’t play with your vibrator while typing, it’s dangerous. Totes, who paid when women were excluded?

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            In your grandmothers era?

            My sons grandmother was also disadvantaged. Not sure why my son should suffer for his late grandmother or yours.

            …”In general. Women excel in certain things. Men excel in certain things.”…

            So we are we pretending that’s not true?

          • On the one hand, Totes thinks men and women “excel” in different ways.

            On the other hand, he’s outraged about a system that aims to put more women into admin roles than labouring roles.

            Presumably, he thinks women excel at bricklaying and men excel at answering phones.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            @drsmithy

            “On the one hand, Totes thinks men and women “excel” in different ways…On the other hand, he’s outraged about a system that aims to put more women into admin roles than labouring roles…Presumably, he thinks women excel at bricklaying and men excel at answering phones”

            I’m not the one conflating and twisting arguments.

            I have one argument. Men are good at certain things, women are good at certain things, so put the best person for the job into the job. That is, I’m being reasonable and practical, and am not discriminating.

            Feminists aren’t fighting for jobs answering the phone. They’re fighting to get the rails run for CEO, political and other premier jobs.

            Luckily, the electorate (sensible rational women and men) considers that ridiculous, and will vote against it.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            I want fairness and equality for all. Best PERSON for the job.

            Feminists want favours given to women to elevate them into the best jobs there are, potentially excluding more capable men.

            You just can’t justify your ludicrous position.

          • I’m not the one conflating and twisting arguments.

            LOL. It’s the most common thing you do.

            I have one argument. Men are good at certain things, women are good at certain things, […]

            And it’s stupid. It takes literally one woman to be better than any man at “men’s stuff” (or vice versa) for it to fall apart.

            […] so put the best person for the job into the job. That is, I’m being reasonable and practical, and am not discriminating.

            It’s not, because it starts from the position that discrimination in hiring does not exist.

            As any person who has been even remotely involved in the hiring process knows, this is an utterly ridiculous premise.

            Feminists aren’t fighting for jobs answering the phone.

            Uh, yeah, they really are. “Equal pay for equal work” is literally the catchcry upon which policies are built.

            You just can’t justify your ludicrous position.

            I’m quite confident you have little to no understanding of what my position is.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            “And it’s stupid. It takes literally one woman to be better than any man at “men’s stuff” (or vice versa) for it to fall apart”

            You’re not talking about the outliers getting a go. You’re talking about potentially more capable men making way for potentially less capable women.

            “I’m quite confident you have little to no understanding of what my position is”

            Of course I do. The exact opposite to whatever I think is normally what you think.

            I’m practical and intelligent. You’re extremely emotional.

          • You’re not talking about the outliers getting a go.

            There are very, very few jobs where “outlier” status is dictated by gender.

            You’re talking about potentially more capable men making way for potentially less capable women.

            I’m not.

            Of course I do. The exact opposite to whatever I think is normally what you think.

            I’m practical and intelligent. You’re extremely emotional.

            😀

            I’ve been called a lot of things in my life, but I don’t think “emotional” is amongst them.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            @totes…”You’re talking about potentially more capable men making way for potentially less capable women”

            @smith…”I’m not.”

            Great. After more than 10 years we finally agree on one thing. There should be gender fairness, no quota’s, no favours, no advantage, no disadvantage. Jobs by merit. No tricks. No fancy stats manipulation.

          • There should be gender fairness, no quota’s, no favours, no advantage, no disadvantage. Jobs by merit.

            You are asserting that quotas cannot be implemented without preferencing less capable women over more capable men.

            Your premise is wrong.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            “You are asserting that quotas cannot be implemented without preferencing less capable women over more capable men”

            I’m not asserting it. I’m saying it already happens. I’ve seen it.

            Please, in detail tell me how quota’s can be implemented without preferencing less capable women over more capable men, when literally men will be excluded from applying for certain jobs where it was ALREADY open to both men and women.

            Walk me through the process that ensures more capable candidates aren’t pushed aside.

            Sick of the BS. SPELL IT OUT.

          • 10 positions.

            100 applicants. 30 women, 70 men.

            4 women and 12 men score top marks on all selection criteria.

            4 women and 6 men are hired.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            WTF?

            So now the discrimination comes from the number that apply?

            How about 10 jobs, 100 applicants. 50 women 50 men. 50/50 quota.

            Men occupy the top 10 places in the broad application (psychometric, aptitude, portfolio, resume, references, panel interview).

            Lower 5 of the top 10 scoring applicants (all men) are eliminated from the application pool.

            The first 5 women, that all scored lower than the 5 eliminated men, take their place.

            That is blatant discrimination. That is what you’re advocating.

            You should bale out of this debate like Anders has. Neither of you can defend your ridiculous positions.

            Forget hypotheticals. Just do what’s fair. No quota’s. No discrimination.

          • You requested:

            Walk me through the process that ensures more capable candidates aren’t pushed aside.

            I gave you an example of exactly that.

            You just substituted your straw man and hyperventilated some more.

            As usual.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            “I gave you an example of exactly that.”

            No you didn’t. You gave me a scenario where not enough women applied for the job.

            AND if the top 10 candidates were women, under Australian legislation, the women would have gotten, and deserved the 10 jobs.

            If the top 10 were men, HR etal would have ensured there were some women.

            Whinging about discrimination, being given free ride to the cream, then not applying, then whinging about discrimination. Bizarre.

          • No you didn’t. You gave me a scenario where not enough women applied for the job.

            Yes they did. 30 > 10.

            You are, as usual, taking the solution you want, creating an argument to match it, then insisting any other possibility is wrong.

            AND if the top 10 candidates were women, under Australian legislation, the women would have gotten, and deserved the 10 jobs.

            This is false.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            In your scenario, 13% of female applicants got a job, and only 8.5% of males did.

            Your scenario presents extreme gender bias. Ditto with top marks. You’re still whinging?

            Maybe if men went to work, and handed the money to the government to distribute to women that work fewer hours you’d be happy? Oh hang on. That is what you want.

            You are the reason Labor are unelectable. you are the reason Australia is falling off a cliff.

          • In your scenario, 13% of female applicants got a job, and only 8.5% of males did.

            And ? Your requirement was that less capable women not be preferenced over more capable men, not that the same proportion of male and female applicants be hired (presumably, regardless of their capability).

            Your scenario presents extreme gender bias. Ditto with top marks.

            No it doesn’t. Indeed, just to try and satisfy your sexism, I had a higher percentage of men (17% vs 13%) meeting the selection criteria. Because men are better, y’know ?

            What it represents is quotas being addressed without sacrificing ability.

            Let’s go back to the request:

            Please, in detail tell me how quota’s can be implemented without preferencing less capable women over more capable men […]

            My example does exactly that. No men are excluded from applying. No less capable woman is preferenced over a more capable man.

            But now you’re moving the goalposts and complaining because a higher percentage of the women applicants got a job than the male applicants, despite all of them being capable.

            It’s quite obvious from your subsequent comments that your actual argument is: men are better than women so the very idea of women being as capable as men is invalid.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            “But now you’re moving the goalposts and complaining because a higher percentage of the women applicants got a job than the male applicants, despite all of them being capable.”

            lol. So now the criteria is “capable”, as opposed to selecting the “MOST CAPABLE” which as I said, may, or may not be a male, but with quota’s it’s possible MORE capable men have to make way for less capable women.

            You are full of sht.

          • So now the criteria is “capable”, as opposed to selecting the “MOST CAPABLE” which as I said, may, or may not be a male, but with quota’s it’s possible MORE capable men have to make way for less capable women.

            You work so hard to avoid the point.

            All 16 possibles gets 100/100 on the test. They’re all “MOST CAPABLE”. That’s the point you’re insisting is impossible.

            There is no reason why a quota must produce the result you are claiming. Your premise is broken.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            “All 16 possibles gets 100/100 on the test. They’re all “MOST CAPABLE”. That’s the point you’re insisting is impossible.”

            Let me get this right. After psychometric testing, job specific testing, qualifications, uni results, work history, reference checks and interview, of 100 applicants, 16 score 100/100?

            That’s replicated in job after job over and over and over and over?

            That’s what you’re saying?

            “You work so hard to avoid the point”

            I don’t work hard to argue with you. You think like a 4 year old.

          • Let me get this right. After psychometric testing, job specific testing, qualifications, uni results, work history, reference checks and interview, of 100 applicants, 16 score 100/100?

            Yes, champ.

            If the scenario instead was that out of 100 men, 16 scored 100/100, would you be arguing so hard that it was impossible ?

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            “If the scenario instead was that out of 100 men, 16 scored 100/100, would you be arguing so hard that it was impossible ?”

            It’s a moot point. It’s fking stupid.

            If there’s 16 candidates that all got 100%, and there’s only 10 jobs, you need to find a way to separate them, that doesn’t include gender, or it’s discrimination.

          • LOL. There’s those goalposts shifting again.

            Surely the least discriminatory path would be to hire 5 women and 5 men ?

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            So, not the best person for the job.

            Are you seriously saying that? Is this now your argument?

            Instead of further testing criteria with the goal of finding the best person for the job, we’re now selecting on gender….and….that’s fair to the 6 guys you pushed out the door.

            Can you confirm that’s what you’re saying.

            You are an idiot.

            I’ll say it again. You are the reason Labor are unelectable. You are the reason Australia is falling off a cliff.

        • Anders Andersen

          Totes, you say “men a good at certain things and women are good at certain things” Well, gives us the list and the evidence that backs up your grade 7 view on the world.

          Btw Tots, the discrimination isn’t just back to my grannies day, it’s all the way to the present.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            “it’s all the way to the present.”

            Really? Show me. Tell me. There are gaping holes in the entire feminist argument.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            Nope. Neither of you have provided anything but BS, ABC sound bites. Rhetoric. Left wing garbage Australia is sick to death of.

            Stop the BS, and start talking processes.

            ““it’s all the way to the present.””

            SPELL IT OUT. Doesn’t exist does it!!!!!!!!!!

          • ”Really? Show me. Tell me. There are gaping holes in the entire feminist argument.”
            Most of your posts on this topic are living proof that discrimination is alive and well.
            ”Stop the BS, and start talking processes.”
            Simply put, the point is that those women that demonstrate they can perform at the needed standard to be hired are not discriminated against in any selection process. Competence is not compromised and quotas are used to ensure opportunity is there for those who are competent.

        • Anders Andersen

          Totes, your quota argument doesn’t hold water. For example, until Debbie Wardley took Ansett to court for discrimination no women pilots were employed in Australia. So, ALL airline pilots were male, thus when it came to employment there were no quotas for women, only men were employed, neglecting 50+% of the population when it came to selecting pilots. So was that merit based, did the best person for the job get the job?

          The answer is NO, so tell me, if they used quotas to get the number of women pilots up would it result in a lowering of the standard? Obviously not as it didn’t appear to be an issue when women were excluded, so if they still employ male pilots while increasing the total number of female pilots where is the issue?

          So in the past we excluded 50% of the population and no claims were made about employing substandard pilots.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            That was in 1976. That’s a long time ago, especially in terms of industrial relations.

            Society agreed the best candidate should get any role. Reasonable. Who wouldn’t think so? No one.

            Women have been encouraged to apply for all roles, standards have been radically bent and shaped to favour them.

            Women were still not getting the roles because they weren’t always the best candidates.

            So now women want to push more capable men out of the way, and give a free ride to less capable women using quota’s.

            They are the facts.

            You think this is fair?

        • Anders Andersen

          “That was in 1976. That’s a long time ago, especially in terms of industrial relations.

          Society agreed the best candidate should get any role. Reasonable. Who wouldn’t think so? No one.”

          Totes, you avoided the issue, women were excluded from applying and there were no arguments about standards, yet you claim that by using quotas you’re lowering standards. Standards back then didn’t seem to be affected!

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            They’re not excluded now are they!!!!

            “yet you claim that by using quotas you’re lowering standards.”

            I’m saying quota’s are near certain to lower standards.

            In fact, I’ve seen the standards lowered so quota’s can be met.

            You and smith literally don’t have an argument. What you’re defending is blatant discrimination against men.

        • Anders Andersen

          “I’m saying quota’s are near certain to lower standards.”

          So when they excluded women you admit that standards were lowered, do you, or is it somehow different when it’s men. Never saw any accident reports that indicated causes were lowered standards from excluding women. By your thinking then standards in most fields were lowered by excluding women, do you agree?

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            Also almost certain.

            I’ve been trying not to bring the past into it. It confuses what we’re talking about.

            What is fair, is that whoever qualifies and wants a job applies for that job and THE BEST candidate wins. Anything else is discrimination.

            I don’t care what happened in the past. It doesn’t concern me, and nor should it concern feminists, and they absolutely shouldn’t be leaning on it to get favours now.

            You are not grandma. You are you, and you are here living now, and shouldn’t have any more advantage to secure employment based on your ability than me. Or by yours and my definition, the result is, that standards are lowered.

            No one could argue that’s good for women, men, society, our country, or our species.

          • I don’t care what happened in the past. It doesn’t concern me, and nor should it concern feminists, and they absolutely shouldn’t be leaning on it to get favours now.

            You will presumably be staggered to learn that history impacts both the present, and the future.

      • Anders Andersen

        Yes Joey I can understand someone of your limited intellect confusing facts with ideology.

        • This one seems to have psychic divination on someone’s intellect.
          Anders are you a male feminist? Because people who are not feminists are under no obligation to function under the particular set of delusions which you wrongly call facts.
          And if you are a male feminist, you need to explain exactly where the endpoint of feminism is situated. Clearly, precisely and concretely.

  4. I’m a bit late to the party, but Happy New Year chaps and chapettes. Let’s hope it’s better than last year and the one before!

    • Mining BoganMEMBER

      Yes, hip hip and all that.

      Got up early this morn and went for a run before the heat hits. No people, no cars, no noise, birds singing not giving a rat’s about new year, saw a snake. That’s a good new year.

      Actually, there was noise. Air conditioning. Do houses still come with ceiling fans?

    • Absolute BeachMEMBER

      Happy 2022 to all. Got up yesterday with splendid hangover. Forced myself to go sea kayaking. A bit late to get on the water, so got pasted on the way home from Dunk by the North Easterlies. BUT saw a baby DUGONG! Amazing start to a year. It breached directly in front of my yak. It was pristine- zero scars on the back and a strange pinkish/orage colour. A good omen me thinks.

  5. Ronin8317MEMBER

    NSW today is 22577, with 901 in hospital. Number of people in hospital due to COVID have more than doubled in a week. The problem with exponential growth is most people underestimate it.

  6. Happy new year folks. Not off to the best starts – got up early for a swim – pretty choppy with a strong easterly. Got absolutely smashed by blue bottles fkn.

  7. reusachtigeMEMBER

    So, you’re gonna get one of these two. Which one would you prefer, Delmicron or Flurona?

  8. Unable to get a PCR or RAT, I’ve resorted to DIY anal swabs, though tbh I’m not sure what I’m doing and really just feeling my way.

  9. What follows is a THREAD, posted on behalf of Professor James Galbraith, who is not on Twitter but who asked me to share his reaction to this.
    Quote Tweet
    Paul Krugman
    @paulkrugman
    · Dec 30, 2021
    I am not a free-market zealot. But this is truly stupid 1/ twitter.com/guardian/statu…
    Show this thread

    https://twitter.com/StephanieKelton/status/1476938880045797378

    Hope MB’ers had a good one last night and cruse through today … Gezz that halifax per se block shiraz 2010 is good and have half a bottle left for later today with OP rib three finger steak done on weber bbq with mesquite smoke … doggies and me will have a feast …

  10. Let poets sing of English girls,
    Their beauty and their candor;
    Give me a sweeter nymph than all, –
    The lass of Yackandandah.”

    “She draws a cork with such an air,
    No mortal can withstand her;
    She turns a tap, and turns our heads, –
    The lass of Yackandandah.

    — O’Brien, The Lass of Yackandandah – a goldfield beauty

    Opportunity missed to rhyme it with Verandah.

    • She walks in beauty, like the night
      Of cloudless climes and starry skies;
      And all that’s best of dark and bright
      Meet in her aspect and her eyes;
      Thus mellowed to that tender light
      Which heaven to gaudy day denies.

  11. I don’t know what Coatsworthis thinking in his article today. You would think it might be better to wait for data before claiming the pandemic will end this year – especially given NSW hospitalisations have tripled in about 10 days.
    He has downplayed the virus from day 1 and does not have a great predictive record.

  12. Also thank goat for Sonora Estate Red Catuai Costa Rica coffee beans …. fresh grind and brewed in a Brikka espresso pot frothed full cream milk … can also recommend Costa Rica El Conquistador Santa Maria de Dota …

      • Go study some biblical archeology which points out what brand you adhere to is just rewarmed older Sumerian mythology which in turn is the same of even older mythology. I don’t worship anyone or thing BTW.

  13. ErmingtonPlumbingMEMBER

    I think I’m turning into my father.
    Even after quite a few beers and not going to bed until 1am I wake up at 6.30am!
    We are Staying in a mates unit at Curl Curl and so I quietly wake the boy to go on a surf check.
    We end up in the water back at North Curl Curl and end up spending a couple of hours in the water.
    I didn’t get many rides on my old short board but it was fun paddling around with the boy. He liked being out the back once I coaxed him back into the water after being pumbled and driven into the beach by a bigger set. He can’t duck dive yet and my 7”4 gun like my other short board is to big for him.
    But we still had fun.
    Good way to start the year before getting back to work on Monday.

    • Mining BoganMEMBER

      Yeah, I was asleep before 11. Up early for a run. Now cranky at the movement in the house as everyone is rising and annoying my peace.

      Time to watch a movie.

      • boomengineeringMEMBER

        .When the shearing sheds are silent, and the stock camps fallen quiet
        When the gidgee coals no longer glow across the outback night
        And the bush is forced to hang a sign, ‘gone broke and won’t be back’
        And spirits fear to find a way beyond the beaten track
        When harvesters stand derelict upon the wind-swept plains
        And brave hearts pin their hopes no more on chance of loving rains
        When a hundred outback settlements are ghost towns overnight
        When we’ve lost the drive and heart we had to once more see us right
        When ‘Pioneer’ means a stereo and ‘Digger’ some backhoe
        And the ‘Outback’ is behind the house. there’s nowhere else to go
        And ‘Anzac’ is a biscuit brand and probably foreign owned
        And education really means brainwashed and neatly cloned
        When you have to bake a loaf of bread to make a decent crust
        And our heritage once enshrined in gold is crumbling to dust
        And old folk pay their camping fees on land for which they fought
        And fishing is a great escape; this is until you’re caught
        When you see our kids with Yankee caps and resentment in their eyes
        And the soaring crime and hopeless hearts is no longer a surprise
        When the name of RM Williams is a yuppie clothing brand
        And not a product of our heritage that grew off the land
        When offering a hand makes people think you’ll amputate
        And two dogs’ meeting in the street is what you call a ‘Mate’
        When ‘Political Correctness’ has replaced all common sense
        When you’re forced to see it their way, there’s no sitting on the fence
        Yes, one day you might find yourself an outcast in this land
        Perhaps your heart will tell you then, ‘ I should have made a stand’
        Just go and ask the farmers that should remove all doubt
        Then join the swelling ranks who say, ‘ Don’t sell Australia out!

    • Ronin8317MEMBER

      I couldn’t sleep until past 1am due to morons releasing illegal fireworks all over the suburbs. Where do they get them? I thought it’s all illegal?

    • Fishing72MEMBER

      It’s the flu. Get over it. Seriously mate, you should see someone. You don’t seem to,realise how detached from reality your fear has made you. Hundreds of thousands of Australians have it and hundreds of thousands of Australians will attest that it’s just the flu ….except for a couple of dementia ridden septuagenarians who were on the precipice of life and the actual flu would have sent them to the afterlife anyway.

      I’m not having a lend or taking the p1ss, I’m not trying to be a smart ars3 or acting with any malevolence whatsoever. I’m trying to be kind and honest. Your impossibly negative perspective on the situation is completely unrepresentative of reality. You should really talk to someone mate.

  14. “Mr Foley said he was struck by a recent tour of the Alfred Hospital, where the ICU had been expanded from one floor to three floors.

    “It was certainly an eye-opener for those hard-working frontline ICU professionals to point out to me an entire floor of that ICU only being filled with people who are not fully vaccinated,” he said.”

    And we are paying for this. What a disgrace.

    • When will it dawn on you that vaccination does not stop infection when the numbers of vaccinated being infected keeps going up, but like Krugman you have painted yourself into a corner and now look to scapegoat others for that failure.

      • did you miss the part about an entire floor being taken up with unvaccinated patients?

        They were merely asked to take a vaccine – not drown in mud at Passchendaele.

        • Are you aware this is not a relative world example but a local one and not every location has the same dynamics?

          • Its not relative to the fact that vaccinations are not sterilizing and deceiving people about it drives more infections in both vaccinated and vaccinated, but you would rather engage non scientific journalism based on some notion of Class.

            Latest U.K. data suggests that anyone vaccinated more than a few months ago is at a much higher risk of Covid-19 infection and, therefore, more likely to be infected than their unvaccinated counterparts. The vaccinated now pose the most significant risk for Covid transmission.

            https://www.riotimesonline.com/brazil-news/modern-day-censorship/fully-vaccinated-people-in-uk-suffer-much-higher-infection-rates-than-unvaccinated-and-its-getting-worse-every-day/

            That is back in November and its been pointed out time and time again that it takes a layered approach to deal with covid and not just vaccinations alone, yet the same people that have been pumping this propaganda are the same ones that denied covid was transmitted via aerosols due to the ramifications of publicly accepting the scientific facts. Mostly emanating out of the U.S. and U.K. for some strange reason and highly influenced by the pharma industry and private equity posse dressed up as public health policy.

          • Doesn’t matter if everyone gets infected.
            If the vaccine stops the hospital filling up then it’s doing its job and also preventing long covid.

          • No data to support that vaccinations stop morbidity’s associated with long covid regardless of reduced term or symptoms for the majority, just the opposite IMO. This again is another reason for a layered approach to reducing infection full stop and not relying on the already failed vaccine alone approach.

        • The Grey RiderMEMBER

          “….an entire floor of that ICU only being filled with people who are not fully vaccinated.”
          Reason they are in ICU?…are they being treated with or for COVID?
          The statement infers the other 2 ICU floors are filled with fully vaccinated persons…

          • I read it the same way: implication 2/3rds vaccinated but the 1/3 unvaccinated. No mention if they have simply designated one ward as an “unvax” ward for some reason and no mention of the actual numbers in any of them.

            It’s all lies to fit a narrative. The corpses have failed to pile up despite the chicken littles like Sweeper carrying on AND despite the high case numbers.

            Where are all the excess deaths?

        • Fishing72MEMBER

          Less than 3% of Australia’s ICU beds contain someone who has tested positive to covid in the past 28 days. One third of this microscopic fraction of the population is fully vaccinated.

          • Muttafukaburrasaurus.MEMBER

            Fair enough.
            The issue is that Australia doesn’t have the equipment or staffing capacity for a rapid increase in demand.

    • No sane person denies that the experimental jabs do in fact reduce ICU attendance 4-20 weeks after the jab.

      However this does not come without cost. The enormous cost of the “vaccines” is in damage to the bodies of the people who are vaccinated. There are short-term, medium-term and long-term effects.

      Sweeper, you are like a blind man gripping only part of the elephant and confidently and wrongly describing the situation.

      I could find some “data” that makes Paul Keating look like a good treasurer. Would some one-sided data sway you?

      • Fishing72MEMBER

        I deny that the vaccine presents a statistically significant improvement of chances against a covid induced ICU visit in someone who is less than 50: years of age and without severe chronic illness.

        The chances of an otherwise healthy sub 50 year old Australian ending up in the ICU from covid whether vaccinated or unvaccinated is so small that the difference in outcomes between the two is meaningless.

      • Anders Andersen

        “There are short-term, medium-term and long-term effects.”

        Your evidence for this please.

          • Anders Andersen

            So youtube is your evidence, should have realised.

            1. Short term no more than indicated by trials

            2. Medium term, just bs. CDC and any recognised authority will tell that any short term effects will occur within 8 wks.

            3. Long term, according to CDC, MITMedical, my GP and others. Only LT effects are what you face if you ingest or take anything, so the ingredients used my cause an issue in 20 yrs time (that are unknown now). The gene therapy claim is absolute bs, my ex B.I.L does med research and your claim is rubbish, as stated also by other experts including a research team at UWA.

            As to the young lady, really sad but not evidence of your claim and not supported by any medical evidence I could see online.
            Negative: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300447141/covid19-vaccine-experts-call-for-proof-as-givealittle-scam-page-stays-live

            ““[The page’s information] does not look correct, nor does it make medical sense. The symptoms and behaviour are not related to vaccines but to other behaviours and issues,” said Le Gros.

            “There needs to be some scientific or medical credibility added to the terms of use. I think this would warrant [the page] being pulled, this case clearly warrants that. If it is a true medical condition diagnosed by a health professional, a registered doctor in NZ would be able to prescribe such things.”

            No medical support for her condition whatsoever.

            This is typical conspiracy theory rubbish.

  15. How do they cast astroturfers? Is like casting a soap opera or do they look for someone who can really get into the character and be more naturalistic? Is there an agent for them? Does someone have the Linda Evangelista is astroturfing in their books and we only get the ones who can’t make the cut for the Lowes catalogue? What’s a performance review like? So many questions.

    • Q1. Are you willing to sell out your own family and children and children’s children?
      A. Yes.

      You’re hired.

  16. I’m quite bemused by the slew of “experts” already declaring Omicron as the “end of the pandemic”. Seems like more than a touch of clairvoyance going on there.

    Interesting discussion of possible COVID futures here:

    https://www.vox.com/22846696/omicron-covid-19-variant-virology-mutation-vaccine

    but what I found fascinating is the diagram of the radial phylogenetic tree of SARS-CoV-2 provided in the article. As they point out, it seems to have appeared out of the blue (despite being bright red in the diagram). Perhaps it does a reflect a dominant strain that will become the “new cold”. However one might also say it appears to be an outlier. What if a spontaneous, effective mutation appears from the Delta side of the tree (say, perhaps, from an animal reservoir)?

    I am hopeful for the end of COVID days; the restrictions are irksome, to say the least. However, I will be keeping the end-of-pandemic champagne on ice for now.

      • Fishing72MEMBER

        No, the system falsely made you think it was too dangerous to go to work in the first place. You think delta has simply evaporated because another strain is trending on Twitter? Remember a few months ago when you were told the R0 of delta was high and that it’d spread like wildfire and destroy the population? Well delta is still out there doing it’s thing – allegedly- yet no one is getting sick to the predicted degree or in the predicted volumes. Why not ?

        Because you were lied to. Because the illness was only ever serious to an absolutely tiny percentage of the population and to the rest it was just the flu. That’s all it ever was but you never knew this because you never got any real world exposure to it, just breathless media accounts of the unfortunate minority who get severely affected which was then fraudulently extrapolated as an existential threat to the population at large.

        Now the narrative is unwinding ( temporarily? ) and people are actually catching the flu- like illness en masse , you are struggling to accept the change in storyline.

        • RobotSenseiMEMBER

          Remember a few months ago when you were told the R0 of delta was high and that it’d spread like wildfire and destroy the population? Well delta is still out there doing it’s thing – allegedly- yet no one is getting sick to the predicted degree or in the predicted volumes. Why not ?
          Because people took the advice to get vaccinated, which has stopped people ending up hospitalised from Delta infections. Now Omicron is starting to outcompete Delta, much like Delta outcompeted Alpha (for instance, in Victoria Omicron has overtaken Delta as the dominant strain). People will still get sick, some will even end up in hospital/ICU, but it will not be nearly as bad as if we had huge swathes of the country unvaccinated.

          • Fishing72MEMBER

            Not quite mate. There’s still hundreds of thousands of unvaccinated people in NSW, millions if you count children and there is a grand total of 38 unvaccinated people in ICU ( after testing positive to covid in the past 28 days ). There is potentially hundreds of thousands of delta cases and we are not seeing the predicted volumes of severe illness or death. Your assertions are faith based and without evidence.

            Apart from that you really need to realise that the effectiveness of vaccines in making a difference to chances of severe illness for a person who is not vulnerable ( ie sub 60 , no chronic ill health) are quite insignificant and extremely insignificant the younger and healthier the subject.

            The vaccines are not attributable for the lack of severe covid outcomes amongst most of the Australian population.

            The virus is not as bad as you’ve been told. It can be a very serious issue for the extremely vulnerable but the vast, vast majority of people will experience nothing horrendous at all ….fact.

          • RobotSenseiMEMBER

            Not quite mate. There’s still hundreds of thousands of unvaccinated people in NSW, millions if you count children and there is a grand total of 38 unvaccinated people in ICU ( after testing positive to covid in the past 28 days ). There is potentially hundreds of thousands of delta cases and we are not seeing the predicted volumes of severe illness or death. Your assertions are faith based and without evidence.
            My assertion regarding omicron v delta in Victoria isn’t faith based: see, for example:
            https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/new-infections-surge-to-an-all-time-high-as-victoria-records-7442-covid-cases-nine-deaths-20220101-p59l7e.html
            The other assertions are entirely logical: NSW has almost 93% of it’s 12 and over population vaccinated. If that number was as it was back in Aug/Sept when delta broke out, I’d be much more concerned. To your point on the number of delta cases in Victoria, to suggest there are “hundreds of thousands” of cases is obviously incorrect given that the total new delta cases is in the range of low thousands/day (7400/2).
            With regards to the volumes of severe illness or death – it is far, far too early to say. Nobody knows this; hospitalisations are going to lag by weeks. Anyone who suggests otherwise is lying.

            Apart from that you really need to realise that the effectiveness of vaccines in making a difference to chances of severe illness for a person who is not vulnerable ( ie sub 60 , no chronic ill health) are quite insignificant and extremely insignificant the younger and healthier the subject.
            They are, but as you so astutely pointed out the other day, the absolute risk reduction is in the low-single digit percentages. When you look at that number’s inverse however (the NNT), and how many people that involves (multiply the 12-60yo age bracket in Australia by the ARR), you’ll see it’s still a very significant number.

            The vaccines are not attributable for the lack of severe covid outcomes amongst most of the Australian population.
            Now who’s making the faith based assertions?

            The virus is not as bad as you’ve been told. It can be a very serious issue for the extremely vulnerable but the vast, vast majority of people will experience nothing horrendous at all ….fact.
            You’re somewhat right with the second point. You’re clearly wrong with the first, as the Italy, US, and UK experience with alpha and delta would easily demonstrate.

      • Well…..that reads as a paid political announcement on behalf of the LNP.

        Perhaps he should change his name to “Dick”.

        If the nature of the virus is to always evolve to be more benign (yes, I know that’s a simplification…does Nick?), how did Alpha give way to Beta?

        Nick suggests we have bought the Golden Ticket in a genetic lottery. We shall see…which would have been the sensible comment; but hard to make political mileage with that.

        Which seat do you think he will run in?

        • Which seat do you think he will run in?

          The seat of his pants?… basically these chvntards are wishing and politically directing the virus to stop virusing.

          We shall see shortly if their bluster amounts to anything more, won’t we?

      • Muttafukaburrasaurus.MEMBER

        He’s pretty confident… I’m still betting on forthcoming increase in chaos, due mostly to a failure of federal leadership in many regrads.

        • I ‘like’ Kinky Friedman’s description – “The Spoiler”. Another, apt for southern dry summer – “dry as a nun’s nasty”.

          • I think we would have fun over a few chardies ginger.

            I was thinking about kinky when I wrote that. He had a texan friend and they went and ate chicken fried snake, before going on the mission?

            Anyway I am a big fan of Kinky, have read all the books I think.

        • Same, though most lost in fog of memory, the Spoiler an honourable exception. I think it was a bar-fly mate of his in Sydney that introduced him to the desiccation metaphor.

        • reusachtigeMEMBER

          You carnts dwell on misery I’m sure. So far absolutely none of your misery has lead to anything substantial including a house price crash. I think fear and lack of ability to enjoy risk is an inherent feature in all of youse. “Chicken sh1ts”. boc boc boc

          • RobotSenseiMEMBER

            It’s alright, comedians don’t get it right 100% of the time, particularly when they recycle the same jokes again and again.

  17. So what is personal responsibility

    Female mid 80’s
    Extensive comorbidities
    Had AZ vaccine middle 2021 – and so is in a group who has been recommended to get a booster since November. But had not got around to it.
    Extended family get together for Christmas
    One family member had a bit of a sniffle – but who wasn’t worried by it.
    Now this person is moderately unwell with Covid

    Is the solution to lock society down and for kids to miss more school? Is that the right thing to do in order to try to reduce cases?

    Or is this where personal responsibility comes in?

    • happy valleyMEMBER

      What is personal irresponsibility? Domicron abandoning masks inside and QR code requirements a couple of weeks ago (before realising the error and reinstating them belatedly) and letting domicron rip?

    • “Is the solution to lock society down and for kids to miss more school?”

      What, we’re supposed to give a fck about children now as well? Fark me this is getting ridiculous. They’re literally the most annoying segment of society. Let missed education rip! All they’ll be able to do with their knowledge is flog or build sh1tty rendered houses or make coffee with love-hearts fluffed into the top anyway. /s?

      • RobotSenseiMEMBER

        I remember reading an article a while back about Bosnian kids who moved to Australia aged 6-10 who had missed years of school as shells landed all around them in the 90’s. Moved here speaking next to no English; all of them ended up as normal functioning adults despite missing huge chunks of education and in a second language.

        Kids are resilient. They’ll be ok.

        • Yes, they are amazingly resilient and agree with your comment. Extending it, they still need loving care. Plenty of evidence, and examples on these pages, if this critical factor is absent, or worse, the outcome is unfavourable.

      • kiwikarynMEMBER

        The bright side is if they all end up “developmentally delayed” and only fit to work as cleaners and baristas, then we won’t need to bring in immigrant labour anymore. We’ll have our own pool of the underclasses to draw from.

    • Ronin8317MEMBER

      Every single indicator says lockdown didn’t with with Omicron. Once it gets into the community it’ll spread, and the only thing you can do is to slow it down a bit.

  18. IF omicron spreads rapidly through the community AND IF catching omicron gives powerful broad immunity to covid (unlike the jabs) THEN in a few weeks omicron could be stopped in its tracks as we finally reach herd immunity (older definition).

    • IF the lady is the sister of your mother or father AND IF she has balls THEN she’s your uncle not your aunty.

    • Better go do your part. Start licking windows and door handles at entrances to public places.

    • Having vaccination or infection to an older variant does not – automatically – transfer any beneficial effects to infection from new variants, hence why any notion of herd immunity was gaslighting from the start because its speed of mutation bypassing it.

      Look I don’t know either that B.1.640.2 will take off and conquer the land of Delta and Omicron. But it is concerning that this small number of patients have “moderate to severe” condition. What happened to SARS2 evolving into cold virus?

      https://twitter.com/hjelle_brian/status/1477011543858446336

      I mean whats so hard about the Wild variant the coast is clear… only for Delta to pop up and the coast is clear … and then Omni to understand … and again what drives mutation rates …. infection …

      • B1.640 whatever may or may not take off but with 3 billion omicron infections in a couple of months something will emerge that WILL take off. I don’t think Omicron will be the last of COVID somehow.

        If we get another variant in a couple of months time that is nasty… thinking mad max outcomes…

    • The Traveling Wilbur 🙉🙈🙊

      Don’t think Dan was his biggest problem.

      Anyone heard from Fishing72 recently?

      • Fishing72MEMBER

        I think I might have the Death Plague.

        I’ve been feeling a bit lazy the last couple of days and assumed it was attributable to the five long surfs I had in the couple of days previous. Nothing crazy , just a bit lethargic. Even had a brief daytime nap yesterday which is almost unheard of. Had a scratchy throat and a weird sort of heartbeat. A bit of lightheadedness if I stand up quickly. Then I woke up during the night sweating and feeling hot. My lady and her mum have all been feeling the same. It’s only just dawned on me that I may be the walking dead.

        I’d rate it’s severity equivalent as an extremely mild touch of Bali belly.

        Should we order the surrounding shire to be locked in their houses for 23 hours per day and get the military to police the streets like we did a few months ago?

          • boomengineeringMEMBER

            I’m feeling great, maybe luck maybe not. Up at 3.30am on the bike before 4.00am. Its usually a case of not wanting to do it but having to do it unfortunately. Just tested the S/S juice pump and delivered it but no operators there so will ride the missus bike later and check it in operation. The 52yo storeman there is suffering terribly from all sorts of health issues and he wasn’t even on the roids for long in his younger days. Can’t believe people are so quick to put vax, etc, etc, substances into their bodies without considering consequences. His mate was on them longer and died at 32yo. At the wife’s ex work (she retired years ago) the storeman there used to love drinking energy drinks and had a distain for healthy foods, died at 30yo.
            Fishing you may have the lurgy so make sure to rest and get some rays and if up to a very short sea swim and hot shower asap after, then more rest. You’re too healthy for it to have a dramatic affect, although healthy people usually pick up whatever’s going around quickly as their antibodies are not active at the time of infection.

          • 20% of asymptomatic cases get long Covid.

            A recent decent sized study out of Arizona found that 63% of symptomatic cases got long Covid.

          • The only ones deploying the fear memes about are those like you.

            PS are you suggesting information people can use to judge risk is inherently fearful e.g. inanimate things have intrinsic emotional values.

    • Anti mandates doesn’t equal antivax….. once you have committed to the slippery slope, it’s a long way down

      • Muttafukaburrasaurus.MEMBER

        Yes it’s the important issue, I think all political systems in the vast majority of countries have become increasingly invasive and controlling.
        CV19 has been a great opportunity for the repression of personal choice and responsibility… (ironically enough, NSW / Fed Libs have realised the public’s unease and attempted to spin it, to suit their own purposes)

  19. The Traveling Wilbur 🙉🙈🙊

    Well, my New Year’s resolutions for 2022 are:
    – stop lying and swearing so much
    – no having solo relations
    – stop getting drunk while being paid for working from home
    – HODL less BTC
    – and, well, I can’t really mention the last one as that’s kind of the point of it.

  20. My new year’s resolution (decided a few days ago actually).

    To reduce consumption of seed oils. They’s not natural.

    • Fishing72MEMBER

      There’s some interesting stuff about that kicking around. Pretty amazing the things society are subjected to in celebration of the profit motive as highest principle.

    • Can you elaborate please. Are all seed oils bad? Is the bad mainly attributed to heating and oxidation (acknowledging there are also other chemical inputs)? Is there a case for cold-pressed?

      • boomengineeringMEMBER

        Funny you say that as that where I am about to go to check my repaired pump (cold pressed).

      • PalimpsestMEMBER

        The general rule (guidance not letter of the law) is that oils from flesh (e.g. Olive oil, Avocado oil, Coconut oil) are ‘better’ than Bulk expressed oils from the seed, (e.g. Sunflower Oil, ‘vegetable’ Oil, soy bean oil). Like so much to do with diet, it’s ‘sorta’ true.
        In terms of blood lipid profile Coconut oil in moderation may have a positive effect, and Olive oil a neutral effect. Refined coconut oil is not an ‘omega’ type oil, it is medium chain Fatty Acids (MCT) and goes down a different series of pathways in the gut and in the liver. In inflammatory terms, bulk expressed Omega-6 oils, Poly Unsaturated Fatty Acids (PUFA) are believed to be more inflammatory than Omega 3’s. The change in our diet reducing animal type fats containing B-series vitamins and some Omega-3 for substitute Omega 6 PUFA’s is claimed by some to be behind the increase in inflammation-related diseases such as obesity and cancer. (relationship is not the same as causation). So far so simple. However:
        * Eating a handful of mixed nuts each day (unprocessed PUFA’s) is associated with better health outcomes.
        * Lower meat eating is associated with better long term healthy life outcomes.
        * Vegetarians in societies well set up for vegetarianism seem to do well. For example, they need ready access to fresh sprouts to maintain B vitamin levels. I’ve seen papers focusing on other research, but when you compare European vegetarians with Malaysian or other Asian vegetarians, the Europeans seem to have more vitamin deficiencies. [pure speculation: I wonder if more European vegetarians also veer into veganism]
        * Abstaining from all animal fats including fish, eggs, cheese seems to be a high risk approach. We didn’t evolve that way. Inflammatory indicators for vegans seem to be as high or higher than heavy meat eaters (the incorrectly named Paleo diet), and much higher than omnivores. The higher rates of stroke may be related to inability to provide enough cholesterol or essential Fatty acids (EFA’s) [plausible but not proven].
        * There are vegetable sources of Omega 3’s that can be converted by the human body (animal sources tend to be usable without conversion). Vegans are correct about that. However, Omega 6’s compete for the same pathways, and the use of things like soy bean oil that were never part of our evolutionary diet, leaves an omega 3/6 ration that may contribute to inflammatory diseases and Syndrome X.
        * Essential Fatty Acids are called that because they’re … essential. They can be synthesised in the body, but are more easily obtained from things like eggs or animal fats. Omega 6 can compete for those pathways too.

      • Don’t take me as an expert.
        It seems the best oils are butter and lard
        next best olive oil
        coconut oil might be good
        canola not so good.
        high temperature frying and reuse not so good.

        So I dumped margarine for butter a long time ago
        Now I try to cook with butter or bacon fat instead of oil where possible
        I like mayonaise, but don’t buy much of it, so I will stop buying it altogether (50% oil?)

        I like my chips (crisps) but they seem to be about 30% vegetable oil, so will have to savagely reduce consumption.

        I also like my deep fried chips and have them occasionally. I will investigate the possibility of lard or tallow or butter as an alternative.

        I love KFC but am too tight to buy it and so I make my own. I will limit that to special occasions.

        Processed food seems to be a problem because the factory will throw in a lot of cheap sugar, cheap salt and cheap vegetable oil.

    • ErmingtonPlumbingMEMBER

      What about olive oil, rice bran oil and that clear refined coconut oil.
      They’re OK aren’t they?
      And wheat germ oil (tastes horrible) for Vitamin E

      Read somewhere that Omega 3 oil in fax seed oil isn’t the same at Omega 3 in fish oil. A left and right handed molecule thingy if memory serves correct.
      Most studies on efficacy of Omega 3s are done on fish oil derived.

      • boomengineeringMEMBER

        Ermo, wheat germ tastes OK before it oxidizes but it does so rapidly, a day or two is all it takes then it goes off to the horrible department ”on the shelf”.

        • boomengineeringMEMBER

          Many, many years ago there was a belief that stone ground was best, as contact with steel rollers killed Vit E.

      • No palm oil, that’s killing orangutans.
        From memory, there is no or bugger all omega 3s in plants.
        Snake oil is good for you.

        • Two of my mates at CSIRO have dedicated their careers to engineering fish genes into canola to produce Omega-3 without depleting fish stocks. One of them was just made a fellow of the Australian Academy of Scuence for this work.

          • MerkwürdigliebeMEMBER

            Great stuff! Can you buy them a beer for me!

            Australia needs more people doing this sort of stuff and less people dependent on population ponzinomics

          • PalimpsestMEMBER

            If it’s CSIRO work, it’s valuable to Australia and the citizenry in general. Therefore expect the funding to be cut.

    • call me ArtieMEMBER

      The Claw: Yes. Consumption of seed oils is very unhealthy. However, the pace of medical research is glacial so you won’t find your local GP agreeing with this. Sunflower oil, corn oil, safflower oil (with exceptions), grape seed oil etc etc. They are all associated with bad health outcomes:
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4808795/
      So, here’s an interesting fact. It may well be reported in the exact article I have quoted above, but if not, look around and follow credible links (I’m assuming you are interested). Laboratory studies on rats and dogs were entirely unable to induce alcoholic liver disease in test animals on high alcohol intakes, even when using constant intravenous alcohol feeds, until unsaturated fats were added to the animals diet.
      Then liver disease followed rapidly. Furthermore, the tests also showed that removal of unsaturated fats and replacement with saturated fats (e.g. lard) promoted actual recovery in liver-damaged test animals.
      Selecting which oils to use involves some research. But any seed oil is suspect. Olive oil, coconut oil, avocado oil and MCT oil are all pretty safe. If liver health is your priority, then beef lard cannot be beaten, depends on how you feel about cholesterol (which is another giant medical fallacy).
      As usual, the medical community has driven us all down the wrong path for 30 years. Look back at history, it’s a repeating pattern

  21. The Traveling Wilbur 🙉🙈🙊

    Well there go the first four resolutions (búgger it). At least there’s still the one about not referring to Mrs Gav anymore left.

    Edit: FCKn.

  22. SyringeSyringe Dr Henry Madison
    @RageSheen
    A short thread on the magnitude of public maladministration in Australia in the past 50 years, driven by libertarian populists in more recent times and more general neoliberal ideas prior to that. And how Covid throws this disaster into stark relief. /1 #COVID19Aus #auspoll

    https://twitter.com/RageSheen/status/1476728904165441538

    Basically private debt replaced government investment and with it any public/democratic administration.

      • Might help some to finally understand the whole – ZOMG – look at all the government debt trope for what it is … lubing the rails for the private administration and ownership of everything today and tomorrow … but yeah … because markets …

    • Get with the program Skip, it’s health care for the rich and healthy only now….can’t wait to hear what Sweeps gets told to do at Dan’s next toolbox meeting.

      • Best bit is when he goes into a meltdown over the IS-LM and MMT when MMT supporters explicitly want central banks out of the business of attempting to manage the economy. They see interest rates as an inefficient and anti-worker means to achieve that end. That is why they recommend 0% policy rates and a job guarantee instead, that setting a floor for the price of labor is far more powerful and beneficial.

        Then has the cheek to bang on about union bargaining power …. wheeeeeeee

    • When some start knocking back a vaccine during a pandemic because “iTS My BoDY!!” You realise how poisonous the libertarian neuro-programming has been.

      Anyone with a proper education sees right through it.
      But there are those with improper educations who may have been thrown some crumbs by the dog eat dog neoliberal order, social climbers who think they can string together logical thoughts, and the size of their mortgage and food court bill is a reflection on their ability to think, who then knock back a vaccine.

      The irony of libertarianism and “choice” is that, the neuro programming makes the mean dumber, which then means you have to restrict choice to achieve decent public policy.

      • When some start knocking back a vaccine during a pandemic

        When elites redefine a pandemic to suit themselves, then redefine what a vaccine is to suit themselves, redefine herd immunity and LIE, LIE, LIE, LIE…

        And when Nazilike people join in with hatred against intelligent people who wish to weigh the costs and benefits of these experimental drugs and choose to wait, against all the pressure, censorship and money of big corporations who stand to gain more money…

        then you need to take a good hard look at yourself and your role in this madness Sweeper. You might consider yourself to get off lightly if you get your head shaved and be paraded around town after it is all over.

      • PalimpsestMEMBER

        An alternative view is to follow the money. Who has benefited massively from the pandemic – the wealthier. The transfer of wealth has been enormous. When I look at the people pushing the agenda against precautions (no lockdowns, limiting vaccine research and deployment, and heavens, don’t make me wear a mask) I see people like the Koch brothers or Murdoch. All vaccinated themselves, all wealthy, all very happy to support the freedumb marchers.

        It just raises a question in my mind if there are wealthy elite that really want COVID to continue, it really has been a gift to many. “Nothing to see here, it’s just the flu”, “wearing masks is the end of your personal freedom”, “no need for other, nimble vaccine supplies, Pfizer will take care of varieties with the original flavour”.

      • Son, we don’t even innoculate our sheep with a new flash in the pan vac, so what makes you think us Farmers are going to rush out and put this in ourselves?
        I don’t know what to say to you lad, one because its not my business to tell you what vacs to put into your sheep, or yet yourself.
        Hysteria, is a funny thing, and yet not a funny thing when suffered/inflected on many people…
        Calm down, and maybe have a think…a good long think….It maybe that I am old, that I have seen waves of fads, waves of politicking, and in my thoughts a group step to this that calls for deep thoughts, and not a rush to dismiss other peoples thoughts…

  23. ErmingtonPlumbingMEMBER

    Rex Connor and the ALP got rolled for trying to implement similar policies in the early 1970s.
    Ever since we have been ruled by sellouts and traitors.

    “JAKARTA – When the Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono government pushed through Indonesia’s 2009 Mining Law, industry skeptics warned that provisions in the legislation ending the export of raw minerals and ushering in a new era of value-added manufacturing would cost the country dearly.

    Now those same critics are having to eat their words. Led by the booming nickel industry, iron and steel exports this year are expected to top US$20.5 billion, double that of 2020 and one reason why the economy has stayed afloat through the Covid-19 pandemic.”

    https://asiatimes.com/2021/12/indonesias-value-added-mining-policy-paying-dividends/

    • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

      lol. That was one of four or five of my recent listed and numbered predictions on MB to highlight how ridiculous these morons are.

      Can’t remember the rest. Wish I bookmarked it.

      Leave Labor 2nd last. Just before the Greens. We just can’t do it again. We just can’t.

    • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

      “Tank Engine.2 HOURS AGO..I hope Albo’s staff remember to update the header and footer so it doesn’t show the press release dates from 2004, 2007, 2010, 2013, 2016 and 2019….$500m will build 1/2 a platform at Central”

      Labor spent $60m on each of numerous feasibility studies, “2004, 2007, 2010, 2013, 2016 and 2019”. That’s $360m given to consultants (Labor donors no doubt).

      The electorate considers Labor as an incompetent, overly woke, pack of clowns, never to be trusted with government again. No Independent that wanted to be re-elected would dare give them government.

      Labor aren’t winning the election.

    • I seem to remember that tall yank sheila blew about $500m on something similar just before she was voted out. History repeats it seems.

      • Ronin8317MEMBER

        That would be the Sydney Metro?

        https://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2010/s2827058.htm

        High Speed Rail is basically a pipe-dream idea that never get past the planning stage. It does however get votes in the Hunter’s region, so every NSW Premier, either ALP or LNP, had announced this at least once. You can expect Perrottot to announce one as well before the NSW State election as well.

        • Arthur Schopenhauer

          Dunno, maybe Albo is taking up Dan’s train line frenzy. Very popular down here.

  24. Totes BeWokeMEMBER

    Speaking with a FIFO yesterday. Used to earn $200k. Mines brought foreigners in, the new offer was $100k.

    Most Australians walked.

    Mining is Australia’s bread and butter. Jobs in mines have been a political selling point. Labor rolled over on a MRRT.

    LNP and labor have sold to so many competing companies, we can’t even set the iron ore price with a near national, global-monopoly.

    Time to wipe LNP and Labor out and nationalise mining.

  25. Ronin8317MEMBER

    NSW today is 18,278 from 90k test. So a bit of improvement. What is not so good is the hospitalization at over 1000.

    If we can keep it around 20k a day in NSW @1% hospitalization, we should get through it ok.

    • I use cases from 2 weeks ago to roughly calculate net hospital admissions.

      Assuming hospitalizations lag positive test by 2 weeks. 2 weeks ago cases were 2558 (19 dec). Todays NET hospitalization is 163.

      163/2558 x100 = 6.37% Tentative hospitalization rate of increase (based on confirmed positive test)

      I’ve done this calculation for 9 days (cases 11-19dec) and (hospitalizations 25dec-2jan), and coincidentally the AVERAGE hospitalization rate of increase is 6.35%.

      So using todays cases:

      18,256 x 6.35% = 1,159 Projected net extra hospitalizations on this day (that’s ONE DAYs increase) in 2 weeks (16 Jan)

      Seems extreme but even backing off the numbers a bit, surely that’s not sustainable. Obviously hospitalization rate would decrease as they increase triaging/run out of beds and folks battle on at home.

      • The assumption of 2 weeks from testing positive to hospital is off. If you look through the data, hospitalisation peaks about 8-10 days after cases. But it is even closer now because at the moment, it is taking 5-6 days for the result of the test to come back so you could be looking at a lag as short as 4 days.

        • True that. But 2 weeks ago and before, testing data was more timely. It’s only over the holiday period that the wait times for results have blown out.

          Even if you take 5 days off the 2 week hospitalisation numbers (say 9 day gap), the potential direction still ain’t great.

      • Ronin8317MEMBER

        The 1% hospitalization rate is based on data from South Africa. If it’s really is over 6% then we’re OMGWTFBBQ cooked.

    • MerkwürdigliebeMEMBER

      This is the great punt Australia (all of us) are part of this year.

      Either Omicron is less likely to kill us or make us very sick, and so likely Covid from here becomes like the flu, and that the great Covid experience is almost done.

      or

      Covid (Omicron) doesnt lead to low enough hospitalisation and mortality rates, and our 16 week vaccination system cant be maintained [with either the rollouts of the vaccines and boosters or the actual effectiveness they provide against Omicron] or another variant of Covid emanates from somewhere (and makes its way to a nation with 7 major access points which still has never got around to meaningfully doing quarantine)

      If the first is the outcome then I wouldnt put it beyond the Australian people to vote the ScoMo back into office (especially seeing as they have an ALP opposition running a ‘small target’ alternative), amidst a sea of national backslapping and self congratulation – not to mention a load of self help themed books tentatively titled ‘how we did Covid’ about the ‘discovery’ and the ‘resilience’ involved – and we can slip back into importing people to give us the look of a functioning contemporary economy and society.

      If the latter is the outcome then we presumably will roast both the government and opposition sometimes in the next 6 months and descend into something akin to chaos, with the funeral and medical sectors doing a roaring business for a while, until the discovery that shelling out $300 billion plus – yes I agree it was probably more like 500 billion – to the more affluent end of town and juice property prices has become something of a hairshirt for the Australian punterariat.

  26. The “mild” thing was a deliberate and well organized propaganda campaign.

    It actually sent me into complete despair when it happened — how can you fight the whole propaganda apparatus of the world combined? You can’t.

    People have forgotten or never paid any attention, so let me remind you how this went:

    https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2021/12/covid-cases-fill-more-city-hospital-beds-threatening-halt-on-elective-surgeries.html#comment-3656108

    At the end of the day you have to ask yourself who are the ones spreading anti scientific propaganda and why …

    • Arthur Schopenhauer

      There is less overt ‘learn to live with Covid’ propaganda in Central Europe, but it’s still there.

      The Anglo-sphere is almost universal in its propaganda, while only Quebec, WA, New Zealand and Wales have not adopted the mantra.

      It’s the 24 months after a pandemic is declared over that are the most dangerous. Not for the disease, but the political change. A consistent pattern since the Romans.

      (How good is Barramundi from the fish farm your government granted $24 million too? How Fkn Good!?)

      • I thought the NZ example was a tell, soon as the scientists were kicked to the curb the policy changed. This is what happened in the U.S. at onset IMO and a multilayered approach became vax vax vax and all the rest was a state or business concern … washes hands thingy …

        • kiwikarynMEMBER

          NZ has raised the prospect of going back to an elimination strategy. Since we are not overwhelmed by Delta. Hence why with hardly any cases and a 94% vax rate we are still locking up the unvaccinated and demanding vaccine passports everywhere. In any normal society we would have dropped restrictions by now but Jacinda is determined to keep covid out until after her wedding (scheduled sometime late January)

      • ErmingtonPlumbingMEMBER

        Well how about all that Soviet AND Western propaganda that to this day has most people still thinking Lenin and Stalin were Socialist/Communists!
        Yet according to this bloke They were right wing fascists.
        Not proper Socialist/Marxist left Libertarians at all.
        There was not worker democratic control of anything once Lenin took over. The workers councils being the first things he dismantled after seizing power.

        https://youtu.be/WsC0q3CO6lM

        I’d love to hear Jordan Petersons response to the above clip.

      • boomengineeringMEMBER

        Who cares about dying.
        It’s being half alive that’s the worry.
        Btw hope I don’t get it as couldn’t understand the young curry chick operator this morn so had to get extra close to even hear her. Then explain that the pump had to be primed.

    • Ronin8317MEMBER

      Omicron is so infectious that it can no longer be stopped without imposing limit on immigration (e.g. China). “You will get sick but you won’t die” is a much better slogan than “You will get sick and die because we need to import slave workers to lower wages”.

      • MerkwürdigliebeMEMBER

        but it just about works if you change that last sentence to

        “You will get sick and die because we need to import slave workers to lower wages and deliver your pizzas”.

    • MerkwürdigliebeMEMBER

      Doesnt take much to get a heated spurious debate alight on a comment board.

      Why even here today we have something in the order of 70 comments furiously warbling on about the appropriateness or not of gender based discrimination up above. Neither side seemingly capable of seeing the other may have some valid points to make

      • Mining BoganMEMBER

        It’s the modern world. Anyone holding the middle ground these days is the new extremist.

      • I believe that Shakespeare addressed this aspect of human intellectual frailty when he wrote the immortal lines,

        “F#ck em all. They are idiots and worse than that they are boring idiots that need to take up a hobby. Now p*ss off, I’m rewatching The Wire and Omar is about to do something bad*as.”

        Don’t ask me which play it was from, NIDA remains a bit of a blur.

      • I didn’t even bother to respond on that thread. It was Anders, Smithy and Totes going at it and I feel the original point I was asked to clarify has been lost with all the back and forth.

        • Gav, the idea that “equality of opportunity” outside of non-trivial scenarios can exist at all, is questionable. The idea that it exists in a complex established system with generations of domination by particular demographic groups is simply implausible.

          So there is no “madness” in seeking “equality of outcome”. It is, after all, the underlying premise of the most basic anti-discrimination principle there is: “equal pay for equal work”.

          There is a reasonable concern that the use of quotas could see less capable people being hired over more capable people. Ignoring for a second that that sort of thing is de rigueur anyway, and nobody gets anywhere near as aeriated about it when people are hired because of who they know, what school they went to, etc, it is not hard to construct and execute a quota system that avoids this problem (from a policy perspective obviously individuals can abuse it the same way they already do).

          My personal experience is that my wife got a ca. 20% pay bump overnight thanks to “equality of outcome”, and still has to deal with a (shrinking, thankfully) bunch of sexist arseholes every day at work – so when people imply, or outright try to argue, that gender discrimination in the workplace is no longer a problem, it’s a bit annoying.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            “of who they know, what school”

            You can’t choose which discrimination and favours you are or aren’t okay with.

            It goes against everything you apparently stand for.

            Feminists have gone from…”equality, best person for the job”…to….”equity, numbers by stealth”

            It is either THE BEST person for the job, or it’s discrimination. In your scenario, after painfully extracting it from you, you are happy to push 6 potentially more capable men out the door to make way for potentially less capable women.

            If you condone women getting jobs ahead of men, why would society oppose other forms of discrimination?

            Your standards are BS. You set the bar, like Labor set the bar, for the rest of us to behave badly. Grow up.

            BTW. There is no gender pay gap, but let’s leave that for another day.

          • MerkwürdigliebeMEMBER

            One suspects the only reason you Smithy have lobbed a comment down here is because you want to troll that part of the MB commentariat who skated by the large number of comments further up the board…..

            In the mood for a little proselytizing, eh? Let’s have a look at your spiel.

            Gav, the idea that “equality of opportunity” outside of non-trivial scenarios can exist at all, is questionable. The idea that it exists in a complex established system with generations of domination by particular demographic groups is simply implausible.
            So there is no “madness” in seeking “equality of outcome”. It is, after all, the underlying premise of the most basic anti-discrimination principle there is: “equal pay for equal work”.

            OK. So within a complex society comprised of genders who have been dealing with each other for tens of thousands of years – and have developed understandings about the attitudes, expectations and abilities of themselves and others “equality of opportunity” is a fairly specious concept and “equality of outcome” is what is logically in play.

            At one level plenty of people would buy that. But what do we do when that impulse of an era bumps into thousands of years of interactions, and the behaviours ingrained therein? Do we tell the society that ‘evolution has stopped here’ and this is where we divide the spoils? One might also observe that your line is well beyond equal pay for equal work and in the realms of ‘who should get particular types of work, and who should aspire to it’ which then starts to develop potential implications if one also observes (as standard psychological literature notes) that males tend to select partners on physical attributes and females tend to select partners on economic prospects.

            Then (at the risk of sounding like a Marxist) we have the all-embracing Capitalist system which regardless of its upsides or downsides, or its inclination to treat humans as chattels, is largely the economic proceeds distribution system we have to work with, and it does place a priority of being free to choose whatever people it wants for whatever reason it decides, and sees ‘accountability’ for its decisions as an on cost.

            That may have marginal competitiveness implications further down the road – though obviously not in a bubble economy living off redistributed resources revenues, where competitiveness is only competition against something within the bubble. There has been a lot of comment of late about whether the ‘firm’ is still driven by profitability (given contemporary ESG concerns), and I buy very much the Viktor Shvets line that Capitalism is very much in the hands of the state for the foreseeable future – which would make now the ideal time to start imposing a little more social good (if that is what we are talking about) but would bring us back to the idea that maybe gaining some form of democratic imprimatur might be a goer, and that without that – and the address of issues associated with that one assumes – there may be a touch of the Pol Pot in any attempts to push social agendas without actually letting the punters know.

            There is a reasonable concern that the use of quotas could see less capable people being hired over more capable people. Ignoring for a second that that sort of thing is de rigueur anyway, and nobody gets anywhere near as aeriated about it when people are hired because of who they know, what school they went to, etc, it is not hard to construct and execute a quota system that avoids this problem (from a policy perspective obviously individuals can abuse it the same way they already do).

            Let us start from the position that “equality of outcome” and use of quotas is a form of discrimination. It certainly is. Your line I essentially read as ‘Discrimination is right’ (in some circumstances). That may or may not be fine in a range of circumstances but it does open up a range of ‘If discrimination is right there then discrimination should be right here’ types of thinking.

            Yes there would be great concern that imposing quotas is essentially an exercise in punishing the future of one gender (male) to gift it to another gender (female), in order to address perceived wrongs of the gender being punished for the wrongs of the past and to countenance technological change. Your 100% accurate observation about discrimination taking many forms revolving around things other than attributes and skills and requirements of the job brings about interesting questions: ‘Why are we discriminating on this issue and not others?’ and ‘Why are we discriminating against this section of society and not others?’ and ‘Will our discrimination on this plane have impacts on other discriminatory planes?’ – would we want a load of privately educated women joining their privately educated male counterparts to dominate any given field? Is telling young men to forget about an education (or management in public funded organisations) and go and become a tradie really in our national interest?

            But the more obvious question about a quota becomes ‘Why not just 50 – 50 down the line’? Take 4% off the female side for the Lesbian community and 12% of the male side for the Gay (the most recent estimates I have seen for Lesbian and Gay percentages of the community are 4% and 12%) and simply state every last organisation employing more than X number of punters can have a deviation of no more than 10% from 50-50 in every occupation and at every level of management, all the way to the top where every new chief will be a different gender from the previous. If this is all about social justice then that would be a self-evident good all round wouldn’t it? And Australia’s Public sectors and University sectors can start shedding women straight away? (to give younger men a chance?)

            My personal experience is that my wife got a ca. 20% pay bump overnight thanks to “equality of outcome”, and still has to deal with a (shrinking, thankfully) bunch of sexist arseholes every day at work – so when people imply, or outright try to argue, that gender discrimination in the workplace is no longer a problem, it’s a bit annoying.

            Right. Let me state right from the get go that I have no doubt that your wife (without knowing her) could easily find sexist arseholes and pay discrimination. I am very glad she got a pay jump. I have no doubt that being married to someone exposed to that type of behaviour would be genuinely stressful.

            Let me tell you about some of my personal experience. I have represented very large employers in the Federal Court on sex discrimination issues (on behalf of a need recruit and promote women), dealt with more exits of misogynist men than I would care to think about, and embedded in Certified Agreements and HR Policy structures measures to recruit, retain and promote women which gave them an advantage in those organisations. I have personally investigated a number of instances of harassment (up to and including rape) and have advised Australian government organisations not to have eminent international persons on their books because to do so would plausibly risk younger women exposed to them. I have personally dealt with individuals – yes some very hard and pointed discussions – who deployed workplace managerial powers and prerogatives to favour individuals who either had, or could be expected to, repay those individuals with intimate favours. I have seen a lot of this shit.

            That experience, plus a load of further experience as a business journalist in a world where some form of discrimination was always about, and where workplace gender dynamics were often a load more confronting than they generally are in Australia, has led me to some views.

            First, Gender dynamics in workplaces are almost always mind numbingly complex. My suspicion is that large number of both men and women would prefer to deal with mainly the same sex – mainly because it is simpler, and more straightforward and devoid of the frisson of distraction sexuality can bring into a room. That often isn’t healthy for an organisation or a workplace, but it is still a preference style for many decisionmakers.

            Second I think mandating quotas on almost anything brings with it so much further question that it is invariably questionable on an outcome to effort basis.

            Third, Sexism, or discrimination of any type, is not a one way street. Collections of middle aged women with negative views about men are no less discriminatory or sexist than collections of men. They just do it differently – and it is often in more complex forms, and often where they consider what they do in greater detail. These certainly do exist in the management structures of larger Australian employers.

            Finally I would note that when I see the statement ‘so when people imply, or outright try to argue, that gender discrimination in the workplace is no longer a problem, it’s a bit annoying’ I find myself wondering ‘would there be more men experiencing that in workplace or women?’ Although I suspect you are disinclined to acknowledge that there is a massive gender imbalance in Australia’s public sector and University sectors, I tend to the view there will be more men in those environments dealing with managements marginalising their workplace experience in a considered and complex manner than there will be women experiencing similar elsewhere.

            As the father of a young man in a government school who keeps a good eye on what his son is being taught I also think an entire generation of Australian men is being discriminated against and being force fed a narrative revolving around toxic masculinity to embed a ‘right’ for future discrimination against them.

            The inability of anyone – particularly government – to articulate an open approach to addressing these issues – nicely encapsulated by the more than 70 comments back and forth between you guys further up this comment board and an inability to actually engage on the subject (though I would have thought trying to engage with Totes the height of optimism), underpins an almost housing policy like avoidance of the subject, which then feeds into a ‘lets have a little bit of discrimination’ kind of mindset. That then feeds into a range of other issues which cant be addressed. The Family Court and its operations? (and the implications for particularly men?) Suicide, and the economic drivers therein?

            I would also conclude by wondering if some of the hesitation about voting ALP – which seems to be a thing for the electorate despite widespread acknowledgement this LNP Morrison government is the worst government of all time – is suspicion by men about what sort of gender labelling they experience moving forward.

            Time for breakfast…..

          • One suspects the only reason you Smithy have lobbed a comment down here is because you want to troll that part of the MB commentariat who skated by the large number of comments further up the board…..

            Actually, it’s because I thought that it’s a topic of some importance and there might be a chance of a reasonable discussion without being seagulled.

            But when one of the “sensible” voices can’t even make it past the first sentence in good faith…

            But what do we do when that impulse of an era bumps into thousands of years of interactions, and the behaviours ingrained therein? Do we tell the society that ‘evolution has stopped here’ and this is where we divide the spoils?

            No. We decide that some forms of behaviour are unacceptable and need to stop. Like we’ve done innumerable times in the past, and will undoubtedly continue to do in the future.

            One might also observe that your line is well beyond equal pay for equal work and in the realms of ‘who should get particular types of work, and who should aspire to it’ […]

            It’s not.

            Yes there would be great concern that imposing quotas is essentially an exercise in punishing the future of one gender (male) to gift it to another gender (female), in order to address perceived wrongs of the gender being punished for the wrongs of the past and to countenance technological change. 

            Except this is primarily the belief of hyperventilating conservative blokes annoyed that women are being allowed out of the house and into public life.

            Is telling young men to forget about an education (or management in public funded organisations) and go and become a tradie really in our national interest?

            WTF are you talking about ? The “quota” target discussed above is 35% for women in some back office roles. HTF is that “telling young men to forget about an education (or management in public funded organisations)” ? Because they might only have twice the chance of getting the job as a woman ?

            Second I think mandating quotas on almost anything brings with it so much further question that it is invariably questionable on an outcome to effort basis.

            I would absolutely agree that quotas should always be seen and used as a last resort. But that’s not really relevant to my point way up above, which is that there’s no implicit reason for quotas – assuming a vaguely sensible implementation – to preference less capable women (or whatever group you’re trying to increase) over more capable men (etc).

            I find myself wondering ‘would there be more men experiencing that in workplace or women?’ Although I suspect you are disinclined to acknowledge that there is a massive gender imbalance in Australia’s public sector and University sectors, […]

            Yes, but it’s not at the levels of management and influence. There are sh!tloads more women in professions like teaching, nursing, admin, etc, but not in upper management. Your own article from a year ago, linked above, shows this.

            As the father of a young man in a government school who keeps a good eye on what his son is being taught I also think an entire generation of Australian men is being discriminated against and being force fed a narrative revolving around toxic masculinity to embed a ‘right’ for future discrimination against them.

            Like what ? The whinge about this stuff is always in vague, talkback radio terms, never anything specific.

            I would also conclude by wondering if some of the hesitation about voting ALP – which seems to be a thing for the electorate despite widespread acknowledgement this LNP Morrison government is the worst government of all time – is suspicion by men about what sort of gender labelling they experience moving forward.

            I’d be surprised if it was high on anyone’s list of concerns, were it not a subject that had not been immediately brought up.

          • Muttafukaburrasaurus.MEMBER

            Equality of outcome is detrimental to all individuals.
            Unless you do not accept that, persons are in themselves individually different.
            Outcomes are dependent on inputs, when those are variables it follows that the outcomes are not uniform or equal on all occasions.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            “Maybe this will help illustrate the difference between “equality of opportunity” and “equality of outcome”

            Is that kid standing on someone to see over that fence?

            You’re the most delusional person I’ve ever interacted with.

            What’s with deleting my comments?

          • The Traveling Wilbur 🙉🙈🙊

            Well, we finally got there, after some 150 comments, drs posts (with assistance I note) a picture of what it’s all about.

            [Please insert image of a light at the end of a tunnel here.]

            That image with the kids and boxes? Hate it. Gives a bunch of non-thinking hand-waving pearl-ratlling muppets the window to say that is what humanity should aim for and all criticism of said goal must be stick in the mud change fear inspired knee jerk raci5t/wh1tey/toxicman backlash.

            It’s literally a dumb image.
            It doesn’t articulate why the additional benefit is needed by the two shortest.
            Or if there are alternatives.
            Or what the costs of the extra (and not necessarily needed) boxes are. Will there now be a heating supply shortage in that area for example?
            Or what the public benefits of spending that (no doubt public) money are.

            We’re not going to mandate everyone gets the same quality of experience of life in my lifetime so that image is just USELESS as a tool for any discussion as that’s what it actually means. It means meritocracy is wrong, that raising the individual and not society is the goal.

            It’s one whisker away from an inspirational cat poster.

            There is another, much better, image, where the fence is simply removed and all the kids can see. And, therefore, all the other kids not explicitly in the picture can see too. Well, not the blind ones. Though that’s a similar discussion.

            But that image doesn’t align with drs’s unspoken point so that’ll never see the light of day in anything she or he posts.

            Having said all that, any discrimination is dumb, bad and overall unhelpful. Go look at the stats for that for college outcomes in the US if you want to see decades of actual evidence re that and ‘affirmative action’ – but drs doesn’t have to – already knows and already knows the measurable outcomes don’t support their argument.

            Have a great 2022 everyone, and here’s hoping that no shorta55 takes one of their extra boxes and stuffs it over the top of any of your kids’ heads during any job interview they ever go to.

            Gym… wine… doubleblacks… maybe a cheeky red.
            (workday tomorrow so nothing too excessive)

            Edit: note, no matter what the artist would like you to think there is at least one ‘extra’ box in that image – or we just made the tall kid’s life WORSE.

          • The far right moron luvvy hijack club

            Thanks Gunna.

            I was wondering if there were any voices of moderate reason left here.

            On another tack I see you have loaded that at 8:01 am this morning. Am I right in thinking thats out of bed at 7.00 or 6.00 and you have served up roughly 1500 words of well reasoned and beutifully crafted discourse on the main subject without resorting to slagging anyone off, adding a range of points maybe 100 comments failed to get to up above?. Thank you for the thought of it all.

            You ought to get back in the game mate. A lot of people would give their eye teeth to be able to do that. Your country could do with a few more decent people like you teeing off just a bit more often.

            On a completely different issue is anyone else getting lots of advertising for Chinese apartment sales onm the adverts when they come here?

          • Anders Andersen

            TTW,

            “Having said all that, any discrimination is dumb, bad and overall unhelpful. Go look at the stats for that for college outcomes in the US if you want to see decades of actual evidence re that and ‘affirmative action’ – but drs doesn’t have to – already knows and already knows the measurable outcomes don’t support their argument”

            Well, I guess it depends on how you go about it and what you mean by affirmative action. The example I will use again is aviation. For fckn decades women were prohibited from gaining positions as airline pilots, they could work as commercial pilots but couldn’t make it to the top (Qantas, Ansett, Australian Airlines (TAA)) etc, until Debbie Wardley took Ansett to court in the late 70s. Now no one was running around stating that the airline system was unsafe because women were excluded, but it seems today having quotas will somehow tip the world upside down.

            Quotas do not mean employing people who are not capable of doing the job.

            Now getting to your point, TWW on the actual evidence, if you say the evidence doesn’t point to success then I guess you’re saying that women are just not as capable on any given day when they’re pitted against men. There’s no recent science that shows that, tho I do understand that there is some old science from old white men that does.

            Most of the negative commentary I’ve heard form men over the yrs is very subjective, it’s nearly always men holding up their own attributes: competitiveness, assertiveness etc, except if a women holds those she’s a b!tch or a ball breaker. My experience is that is bs and that they have better qualities to men in general, except they’re viewed as being inferior based on male belief, not any reasoning or logic.

          • ”Equality of outcome is detrimental to all individuals.”
            Really? It’s worth mentioning that diverse teams/organisations can deliver enormous benefits in terms of creativity, problem solving etc. I find it interesting that there is little said about these benefits by those that argue against EEO etc. It’s not just about the individual as the individual is part of something greater.

          • Well, we finally got there, after some 150 comments, drs posts (with assistance I note) a picture of what it’s all about.

            My bad. I assumed that most people here would be able to understand one of the simple concepts underpinning our society through purely written discourse.

            That image with the kids and boxes? Hate it. 

            Of course. 🙄

            It’s literally a dumb image.

            All the “points” you’ve raised are there. It ain’t the picture that’s “dumb”.

            We’re not going to mandate everyone gets the same quality of experience of life in my lifetime so that image is just USELESS as a tool for any discussion as that’s what it actually means.

            We as a society spend literally hundreds of billions of dollars every year trying to “mandate” a particular minimum standard of “quality of experience of life” for everyone. If this is an idea that bothers you, you are living in the wrong country.

            It means meritocracy is wrong, that raising the individual and not society is the goal.

            “Meritocracy” is entirely about “raising the individual and not society”. It is the belief that those who achieve success, deserve it because of their “merit”. “Raising society” doesn’t even enter into “meritocracy”. “Raising society” is literally what you are arguing against here with the libertarian line that everyone has an equal opportunity simple by existing without any legal impediments.

            There is another, much better, image, where the fence is simply removed and all the kids can see.

            FMD. The efforts made on these sorts of topics to avoid the point always leaves me amazed.

            Ironically, removing the fence legitimately raises the kind of questions you ask above, because they’re actually not addressed by it. What is the dollar cost of removing the fence ? Is the fence removed legally ? Did the owner of the field get a say ? Is it now subject to trespass and vandalism (and who pays to fix that) ? Will too many people try to crowd in creating a crush and fire danger ? Etc.

            And, of course, how are all the short kids going to see over the other people (the actual point) ?

            But that image doesn’t align with drs’s unspoken point so that’ll never see the light of day in anything she or he posts.

            Go on then, champ, tell me what I’m thinking. Maybe you’ll be less wrong than Totes (not that that’s a particularly high bar given he’s been arguing the same straw man from pretty much the first post).

            Having said all that, any discrimination is dumb, bad and overall unhelpful. 

            Targeted assistance (or “discrimination” if you prefer) has been a key part of “raising society” across the board for generations.

          • without resorting to slagging anyone off

            Literally the first sentence called me a troll.

            And let’s not forget the allusions of genocidal dictatorship levied against people who think there’s still a bit of work to be done improving society.

          • ”Literally the first sentence called me a troll.
            And let’s not forget the allusions of genocidal dictatorship levied against people who think there’s still a bit of work to be done improving society.”

            I was surprised by that and I thought it unfair.
            It is an unfortunate risk that comes from engaging with someone like Totes.

          • The Traveling Wilbur 🙉🙈🙊

            @drs
            Ah, I see [really]. I had thought half of what you wrote the last few days was just to annoy Totes. Sincerely. It’s not like I haven’t thought about doing that well before now (too). I suspect, given your point about “opposite” on meritocracy, that I was wrong. And I read ALL of your posts, carefully, before making my one and only one on this topic above. Sorry about that. Again, sincerely.

            It seems we disagree about the one thing I assumed we did both agree on, that meritocracy is BETTER for society – that collectively across individuals that it raises society as MOAR is achieved (due to individual desires, needs and greed) at LESS cost to society generally (as the costs of progression are more likely to be born by the individuals themselves) than with any of the alternatives.

            Clearly, that’s not what you’ve been / are thinking. But the above was my earlier, and sole, point – sole, as all the rest follows from one’s viewpoint of A) and B).

            We won’t agree on that it would seem, so I’ll, respectfully, just leave that for history to judge.

            @AA
            Normally I wouldn’t bother replying to your comment but in case I’m missing something… I didn’t say what you’ve attributed to me; if you want to talk about examples, maybe use the one already provided that IS an example; and if you don’t know what it is I mean by my use of a term (your words not mine) then maybe google the explicit example of that term provided in the same sentence in the comment relating to US colleges? In this particular instance then you would have found a whole bunch of ‘black science’ (trigger warning: there’s some of the horrible ‘old science from old white men’ you referred to in your comment in there too) on the topic.

          • It seems we disagree about the one thing I assumed we did both agree on, that meritocracy is BETTER for society – that collectively across individuals that it raises society as MOAR is achieved (due to individual desires, needs and greed) at LESS cost to society generally (as the costs of progression are more likely to be born by the individuals themselves) than with any of the alternatives.

            “Meritocracy” is Libertarian claptrap intended to try and legitimise their social darwinism. As with basically all Libertarian claptrap, it completely ignores anything except the individual with the comical assumption that every person starts from the same point simply because there are no legal impediments in their way.

            So if the child of a wealthy family who has every benefit and advantage handed to them succeeds, and the child of a poor single parent who was lucky to be able to provide food every day fails, that is entirely due to one having merit and one lacking it. And they will, of course, hold up the handful of latter examples that don’t fail and the handful of former examples that do, as “evidence” that “meritocracy” has merit.

            I prefer a system that gives everyone the chance to excel, and supports those who cannot.

            If you agree that it is OK to equalise the starting point by “discrimination” (eg: social security, or if you wanted to take a bit of an extremist viewpoint, most public services), then you agree with me, and the kinds of people who talk about “equality of outcome”.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            AlexD

            That’s correct. If leftists are going to engage with logical people, they’re going to come undone.

            BTW, I have been very well behaved, and as usual presented arguments they couldn’t cope with.

            For example. They’re opposed to all discrimination, except against men.

            Go and see how nasty Anders was. I’m still trying to get over it.

          • The Traveling Wilbur 🙉🙈🙊

            I’m pretty sure you’ll be fine Totes.

            You had a feeling, once in 1969, but it’ll be alright as you managed to suppress it? 😉

          • Once again I’m left wondering how I can address anything in this thread with all the back and forth above. But I find myself agreeing mostly with TTW, Gunna and Totes on this.

            I have worked in a big silicon valley company where I was constantly forced to sit through anti discrimination type trainings and hear all sorts of rubbish about how deep down I’m unconsciously biased against here.

            This was despite the fact that I worked in 1 of the most diverse companies in the world with offices in all major cities and a company that employed gay, straight, trans, black, Asian, white, hyspanic etc.. and yet I never personally treated anyone different.

            I’ve had female managers and directors both good and bad. I’ve had colleagues who I knew worked harder than me and were rewarded as a result. I never complained about that.

            But I also found myself being discriminated against for simple being a white male. It’s actually why I left. I couldn’t deal with the double standards anymore.

            It seemed to be that discrimination doesn’t count when you’re a male / white etc.. this same company was convinced that they were paying men more than women for the same job. To their credit after reviewing the data they discovered it was actually men who were being paid less. So they bumped it up to meet the same level as the women.

            They thought that it was employees discriminating against black candidates, but after lots of anti discrimination training and 24 months they made no progress on hiring more blacks (to suit their quota) turns out in the US anyway that not many African Americans are studying computer science. (I’m not going to go into why here since it will just derail things further) but suffice to say the problem are earlier in the career path than with the current company culture.

            My own sister is a civil engineer, she loathes all the awards for women handed out to her. She views it as condescending and feels its undermines her abilities because (and I stir her, by calling them participation trophies) which she agrees is exactly what they are.

            She is constantly getting job offers because of her gender, when other hard working men in her company don’t get the same interest due to being male. Since every engineering company wants to boast about having female engineers.

            A woman I worked with at the tech company above used to hate all the women in tech talks and events the company would put on. She said it was demeaning, why not people in tech? I agree, the whole problem is a focus on gender, sexuality etc.. when it should be about ability etc..

            I recently had to do some interviews to hire someone as a junior at my company, it came down to 2 candidates, 1 was an Australian girl and another a Vietnamese girl. We already have 3-4 Asian girls in the company. I wanted to hire the Aussie girl because I really wanted to give her the career opportunity. She came recommended from someone else in the company, but the Asian girl had a lot of drive and demonstrated ability to work independently etc.. she was much more qualified.

            If i said, well we already have 4 Asian Girls we gotta have a white girl now that would have been a stupid reason to hire 1 over the other and discriminatory.

            You hire the best person for the job. End of.

            And I personally don’t care if that means you’re a gay person, who is 5 foot tall, blind, a woman and covered in tattoos. If you are clever with data and analytics tools I’ll hire you.

            On the topic of the photo above with the kids and fence. I have never been particularly tall (or short), that’s life. I wouldn’t have minded being a bit taller since women in particular like men to be tall (generally speaking) and it just gives you more options in the dating pool. But I also think you should play to your strengths. Just like Danny DeVito or Steve Buscemi (who isn’t the best looking bloke) have.

            Sulking about how unfair the world is, is a good way to remain miserable. Plenty of women use their gender to their advantage. I honestly think this BS about the world being a man’s world is nonsense. Behind many powerful men is a woman who is often in his ear. There is also plenty of women who use their sexuality, attractiveness to manipulate men and yet it’s toxic masculinity that is always wheeled out as the problem. But it works both ways.

          • ”AlexD
            That’s correct. If leftists are going to engage with logical people, they’re going to come undone.“

            @Totes: To put a finer and less ambiguous point on this, I support what Smithy and AA has said about EEO, wage equality etc and I don’t think it was fair to characterise Smithy as a troll. My comment about “risks” relate to engaging in a lengthy discussion with someone (ie: you) that cant consider anything outside of the narrow spectrum of views they are prepared to accept.

            Smithy’s view about these matters clearly comes out of a genuine concern for addressing the actual causes of disadvantage and inequity in our society. It’s one I share. What I find annoying is this contention that merit is somehow lost in this drive for EO – it’s one that features proximately in many of your comments and those of others. The evidence from a number of studies does not support this (as outlined in the link I posted above).

            Anecdotal evidence to the contrary is not hard to find but, that’s a function of not knowing what to look for in applicants and how to find it in the selection process. The reality is bad hiring decisions are made all the time with both men and women. It has nothing to do with EEO/quotas and as the evidence I have presented above (in the link) suggests, there are clearly performance benefits for teams and organisations if it is done well. So it’s not just the right and fair thing to do – its also the smart thing to do.

            ”For example. They’re opposed to all discrimination, except against men.”
            Way to miss the point.

          • Technology is a young industry. While it’s dominated by men and there’s certainly no shortage of sex!st d!cks in it, there’s a lot less “inertia” and (at least in my experience) those people tend not to be elevated into positions of power.

            Fundamentally, this comment illustrates the problem both with Totes’ individual perspective, and in a larger context with organisations that are still full of people like him, that these sorts of policies seek to fix.

            You reckon women are good at science? Go and watch a few animal documentaries.

            I will re-iterate that:
            a) my first comment was about the implausibility of “equality of opportunity” existing and that this is a libertarian/conservative trope intended to maintain and entrench the status quo to [further] develop a hierarchical and stratified society; and
            b) all the hysteria and doom scenarios about men struggling to find work are in relation to a requirement for 1/3 of back office jobs being filled by women.

            Finally, a larger and more subtle problem underpinning all of this are a bunch of economic settings intended to keep a large pool of people unemployed. If man X doesn’t get job Y because a woman did, and he can turn around and walk into job Z, then there’s no negative consequence.

        • ”I didn’t even bother to respond on that thread. It was Anders, Smithy and Totes going at it and I feel the original point I was asked to clarify has been lost with all the back and forth..”
          I think a lot of the back and forth was because of some of the content in Totes’s OP in the main thread – see below (not to mention the tributaries).
          ”Where’s this going? Traffic lollipop chicks promoted to 30 story project managers?.”
          I often skip some comments as I know they’ll get me fired up. I sign of my own shortcomings no doubt but, it’s not all bad. Sometimes it pays to surface tensions.

      • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

        Anders and I have found some common ground.

        I also understand how smith is seeing it. Smith thinks as long as the candidates meet the criteria for a job, women should occupy the positions, and push out potentially more capable men.

        I just want him to now admit, it’s no longer about the best person for the job, and it’s okay to discriminate against men to give women quota’s. That these are the policies Labor are asking us to vote for.

        i.e. Everything they’ve fought for, for women, is now okay to do to men. Grandma copped it, so our sons should too.

        • Anders Andersen

          “Anders and I have found some common ground.”

          We haven’t found common ground, you refuse to accept that quotas in the past had no discernible impact on standards (prohibiting women from certain areas), like for hundreds of years, but think that they will have an impact now.

          Your argument for equality is simply give everyone the same opportunity today, but the fact of the matter is that system in place gives men the better chance. It’s ingrained in society that men are better in nearly all the high end areas, that pay….high…funny that! Going purely on merit will result in the status quo, there is already significant pushback for the low level of quotas (if you can even call it that) we have now, if equality isn’t forced through over a much shorter time frame will we will never get there. Women are still being told that they are not as capable science wise as men, that they’re more nurturing and that is where they should aim for. It’s a load of codswallop, women are more nurturing because that is how they’ve been raised. I have 3 daughters and if you handed them a baby they would hold it out at arms length and go eek, what do I do with it as they weren’t raised to be babysitters.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            “refuse to accept that quotas in the past had no discernible impact on standards”

            FFS. I literally said it would have. Don’t misrepresent what I say.

            I’m very glad you don’t have boys…you don’tdo you?..please.

            Do me a favour? Let your girls read what you’ve written today. See what they say.

            “Hold out baby and go eek”….

            Thank fk not all women are like you.

            What a twisted view of the world and what and who we are.

            You reckon women are good at science? Go and watch a few animal documentaries.

  27. It’s summer….and that means cricket, apparently (though I can’t watch it any more, since the Oz team became a pack of boors curiously devoid of any individuality – Cummings a notable exception).

    So I ventured into this story:

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-02/jamie-mitchell-cricket-abuse-on-india-and-sri-lanka-tour/100715912

    It is a compelling story, horrendous and outraging. Just another example of the fallacy that if someone achieves a position of authority, they must be a good chap.

    To balance the emotional ledger after reading that harrowing story, there was a photo of an old scoreboard during play. For ease of access:

    https://i.imgur.com/IuLX63r.jpg

    I wonder why the eleven’s career never blossomed?

    • Institutional s3x abuse – religious organisations, LNP federal government, Cricket Australia.

      • Don’t even whisper anything like “toxic masculinity” as a possible factor though or you’re just trying to lay the foundations to enslave men in the future !

    • Ronin8317MEMBER

      What was once known as a ‘crime spree’ is now called a ‘new year tradition’ and thus normalized. What’s next? Sexual assult? Looting? Murder?

    • reusachtigeMEMBER

      Society is falling apart. End of empire days for sure.

      Today I bought a delicious banana and natural yoghurt smoothie with extra chia seeds and after a few sucks on the paper straw it was crushed at the top, soggy, and falling apart. So I power walked back to the cafe and asked for a proper plastic straw. She said they aren’t allowed to use them anymore but she could give me another paper straw. I blew up! Told her to give me a farkn handful of straws because I’m going to go through them faster than a pack of tissues at a party.

      5 farkn straws! How is that a good use of resources and my time? Plastic is a symbol of our advanced economy but weaklings are making us revert to ancient tech. For what? Stupid ideals that’s what.

      Give me my plastic!

        • reusachtigeMEMBER

          OMFG, that’s totally it! Even the face from the bits of paper in my mouth. And, my smoothie was in a plastic cup with a lid just like that! So it’s a real thing. I wasn’t joking, 5 farkn straws! We are going backwards and fast.

      • reusachtige, banana, yoghurt.
        Sucking on a straw. One straw insufficient.. tissues…call for plastic
        Could someone please interpret this parable for me?

        • reusachtigeMEMBER

          Nah man. I’m not talking about c0ck, dildos and jism all over the place this time. I’m having a serious issue with ridiculous paper straws. They’re farkt! We’re having something forced upon us here that is a backward step just to satisfy the ridiculous direction our society is going in. Just make all plastic straws blue and encourage people to drop them on the ground when done because they won’t be single use then. Bower birds love using blue straws on their bowers!

        • reusachtigeMEMBER

          Poor bloke losing his plastic straws and cotton wool buds. Thankfully that will never happen here in free Liberal Nationalist NSW!

    • That article is garbage. There is no tradition of car burning; it is only in the ”cites” the underprivileged zones of public housing outside the centres of French cities and the article states later, but conflates it as a French tradition. The ABC deserves a complaint over the presentation and inaccuracy of that piece.

  28. boomengineeringMEMBER

    I recon Ermo will be lobster red by now. Will see if if there is a glowing hue at night over Ermington when he gets back.

    If the rays didn’t get him the bluebottles would have, courtesy of the North Easters

  29. Richard Freyman once said, “I would rather have questions that can’t be answered, than answers that can’t be questioned.”

    We have been at Point 2 for a long time now

    • I’ve a feeling that Richie was commenting about dogma and not mass stoopid fuelled by personal insecurities and the ability to post whatever nonsense insight one may have had. Sagan, Asimov, Freyman and co. were duelling against institutional irrationality and embedded social norms. Now it’s b*m fight in the streets after too much hooch and a few days without sleep from hitting the pipe too hard.

    • Why is it whenever someone writes this it’s always in a forum with people questioning answers ?

  30. Nice of Scott to give old mate a heads up about laying in a stock of RAT kits. Harvey Norman now selling them alongside dining settings.
    Because it’s cool and normal for a furniture store to sell medical supplies.

    • Arthur Schopenhauer

      Like all things Oz, this might just be the thing that stops the Ponzi. After all, where does all the money for apartments blocks come from?

    • Ronin8317MEMBER

      History of inflation without including the effect of non-economics causes like wars are merely people selling snake oils.

        • Voice of ReasonMEMBER

          I think it’s US dollars created outside the US through various conduits.
          If someone could elucidate I’d appreciate it.

          • Muttafukaburrasaurus.MEMBER

            That’s what I understand it to be as well.
            Eurodollar bonds are non-US corps selling USD denominated debt. there was a very interesting articles about yield curve inversion beginning of Dec’21.

        • call me ArtieMEMBER

          Eurodollars are US dollars held in foreign countries in accounts outside of the USA
          Hence, my few thousand USD held in HSBC bank in Melbourne are Eurodollars

          • I guess I have some idea of what they are in fact, but not how they underlie the argument in the post.

  31. Don’t stop running boy
    But don’t be naive
    ‘Cause this world will burn and break you
    Worse than hearts like ours believe

  32. Here’s a question that has me perplexed.
    What does it say about a society when support industries for a given sector are collapsing but the final product is a roaring success story?
    Yep yet another Aussie real estate conundrum?
    How is it possible that there’s such a shortage of building materials when every price signal is screaming “enter this market and provide additional….”?
    Why can’t the broader manufacturing/materials sector effectively respond to this crises?
    The price signals are there (and have been for a long time), is labour in this sector really that tight?
    Is business development capital really unavailable despite the massive price hikes?
    I’d like to believe this the market just “looking through” these shortages, but the closer I look the more convinced I am that the sector is simply unable to respond. Maybe capital lacks the certainty to invest in the required business infrastructure or maybe labour just doesn’t want the job.
    However you look at this problem it is strange and points at broader societal / organizational issues.
    The whole point of a “free market” is that it provides accurate price signals which should direct capital spending and labour training (education) so that these sorts of shortage problems are solved by the “invisible hand”.
    But in our case the problem (building material shortages) has been a persistent problem for several years now, yet we still have no reaction from the supplier market, why?
    I posed this problem with a group of investor friends and predictably got laughed out of the room.
    Lots of comments like, if you think it such a good idea then you invest first…and maybe I will.
    But that still leaves us with the problem why aren’t our existing building materials suppliers scaling up their operations to address these persistent shortages?
    I’m done with “looking through” the problem, I’m staring right at it, and it has a name Stagflation!
    It’s not the same stagflation that we had in the early 1970’s but it’s a close enough relative that we should all know how the story unfolds from here. In the end this is a social / organizational issue because our economic structure is failing us.

    • working class hamMEMBER

      A lot of the original materials inflation that has been produced from demand and transportation has been replaced by price gouging.
      https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj1_83OgpT1AhVQTmwGHd-zCp8QFnoECAIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.abc.net.au%2Fnews%2F2021-09-14%2Fprices-ports-transport-shopping-accc-covid-inflation%2F100458836&usg=AOvVaw0PKiJ1CtqvfK44uyX2jmP3

      New projects will be seriously looking into delaying start dates or securing fixed prices/supply before commencement, either way cooling the demand. Waiting 6 months, just to see if the rises are baked in, would be my guess, also helps continue the high demand/profit situation.

      • It’s interesting that they point a finger at the Ports monopoly with nary a mention of the other big monopolist in this building materials source pyramid (everyone’s favorite hardware store) .
        The investor group that I spoke too were all quick to mention that Bunnings was the elephant in the room…no buildings materials supplier could prosper if they ever PO the big B.

        As for waiting 6 months, yeah that’s what I would do if I had a development project, but I seriously doubt that this strategy will be successful for the simple reason that no one is stepping in to fill this void (Investors just don’t want to touch opportunities in the sector), this suggests further tightening and more price spikes…as I said Stagflation

        • Your problem is the concept of free markets is an ideological slogan to cover up the real malfeasance behind it … E.g. this is not some proverbial village in some closed economic system back 100s of years ago … its all out of context …

          • Mate, I’ve seen the invisible hand of free markets work its magic and it is definitely a wonder to behold.
            As the opportunity is unfolding we have others creating capacity to satiate the demand, it all happens in real time with no one directing the show.
            What we have in Australia is not so free markets masquerading as Free markets. only a fool would confuse the two.

          • Are you using the term of art free markets associated with the libertarian/chicago school doctrine or the classical one Adam Smith wrote about, big/huge difference IMO.

          • In this case it is clearly an Adam Smith reference,
            The village needs more bread and despite the collusion of the existing bakers additional supply creeps into the market and leads to price corrections.
            This additional supply is what’s needed to stem further price hikes, but it’s no where to be found, why?
            You can’t explain it away by saying that the bakers are colluding (after all Adam Smith would be the first to acknowledge said collusion) the thing about free markets is that increased demand (or increased price) is meet by additional supply.

          • Again even classical’s like Smith were pre-industrial and one has to take it into context and not just comport it into the here and now arbitrarily, but then I diverge from you at marginalist economics so banging on about price signals is moot.

        • working class hamMEMBER

          The article is just one example, that I read recently. Obviously Bunnings is a whole other kettle of fish.
          In my experience, most decent tradesman avoid the big green shed. 2nd grade products, huge mark ups, last port of call.
          Convenience is their only real selling point.

    • Arthur Schopenhauer

      There’s nothing complicated about it Dodgy.

      1. Much of the production capacity, including plant, moved north in the 2000s (with much self-congratulation from the CFO and MBAs in the respective companies).

      2. Local production skills have evaporated as a consequence.

      3. A politically connected retail monopoly dominates the sector. (It continues to swallow the competition, aided by the ACCC)

      4. Government policy favors the import-retail model at the expense of resilience. (Mates before Manufacturing.)

      5. Welcome to our Cargo Cult country.

      6. Investment money goes elsewhere.

      It’s insane, because 20 years ago Australia had an incredibly strong and profitable building materials sector.

      And, as you say, of all the things Australia should have, a building materials industry is one of them.

      • I agree we F’ed ourselves wrt manufacturing but that’s only half (actually not even close to half) the problem
        At the moment anyone wanting to rapidly respond to this opportunity would be importing building materials, but even that is not happening with anything like the volume increases needed to stem further price hikes.
        I have personally seen at least 3 business development proposals to containerize building materials for individual house projects. So everything needed to build your house comes in a box from China. Put down the slab and start assembling / emptying the box.
        I’m not sure if any of these opportunities are progressing but that’s where I’d invest if I were to enter this market.

          • I share your dismay.
            I would gladly get involved in efforts to reinvigorate Aussie manufacturing but the investment capital simply isn’t available. If I went all in on my own, I’d be quickly overwhelmed over by supply chain issues and incumbent price gouging, that’s the sad reality.

          • As for Total War concepts, its not the first time we’ve encounter this concept

            Ich frage euch: Wollt ihr den totalen Krieg? Wollt ihr ihn, wenn nötig, totaler und radikaler, als wir ihn uns heute überhaupt erst vorstellen können?

            yeah, that one didn’t turn out as planned for any of the players, better luck this time, I guess…

        • TailorTrashMEMBER

          You are missing a step

          First sell the piece of land to China

          Then import all the stuff in a box from China to build the house……and for good measure use imported Chinese skills cos we have a shortage

          Garn straya !

        • I live in Golden Mountain (GW). Around the corner from me, a new rice castle is being built by all Chinese contractors (the first time I have seen it).
          The interesting parts are that it has been built on a very doubtful site (flood zone) on strip footings and stumps which may be shaken a bit by the new underground rail line that will go about 15 m under it.

    • Muttafukaburrasaurus.MEMBER

      Growth is Dead…. Infrastructure intensive growth doubly so.
      Sell & swap NFT’s, they’ll protect you, at only a fraction of the kilojoules expended.

    • The comments seem to suggest that Australia is simple incapable of running an indigenous Buildings materials sector.
      I know that we’ve lost a lot of high tech manufacturing skills but I didn’t realize that even these simple “first rung of the ladder” industries were beyond us.
      If this is true it paints a very bleak picture for the longer term
      If we can’t do this today, despite ever price signal / indicator saying that this is where Aussies should invest, then what won’t we be able to do tomorrow?
      Will we be :
      incapable of running our own banking sector?
      Incapable of running our own retail sector ( growth of Ikea / Aldi)?
      incapable of running our own health sector?
      incapable of running our own Education sector?
      incapable of running our own Public sector?

      Why would any thinking person believe that these sectors are safe (over the longer term) if developing/sustaining something as simple as the Building Materials sector seems to be beyond us?
      IMHO the price signals are there, it’s capital and labour that are missing in action.

      • Acknowleding all the points you make, you haven’t mentioned the investment unceratinty created by government scheme driven demand (and we have a lot of government scheme driven demand right now). This uncertainty creates a lack of trust in the durability of the price signal on investment time horizons. Govenment schemes also bring foward demand leaving a hole at their conclusion further increasing investment risk. I add historically, and artificially low, interest rates into this bucket also.

        I need to know the demand is solid for an investment in plant to stack up when I need at least a decade to make my money on that investment.

        Might the industry also be responding to the chance of a nasty correction in the short/medium term?

        • Good points. thanks for sharing.
          I don’t even pretend to have the answers, I’m just trying to show that if these signals are insufficient than what is needed to convince the Aussie investment community to expand. Obviously there’s massive mistrust in the durability of the information.

    • The Penske FileMEMBER

      Maybe masks are only used as a mind control tactic keeping COVID front and center in the plebs minds.

      • Mask are the easiest, least expensive, quickly ramped up mfg to scale, zero negative side effects, protocol in reducing transmission of aerosol viruses for the benefit of everyone in society or would you rather hard lock downs …

        • The Penske FileMEMBER

          Zero negative side effects?…. I hope you’re not one of the usual Scumo baggers on here complaining about his lack of effort re the environment as face masks are a disaster environmentally. Personally I think they are useless against COVID due to the size of particles and probably go towards reducing peoples overall immune systems as we miss out on fighting other bugs off (like hand sanitizer as well). I simply created a paper trial with my doctor about hay fever and haven’t worn one since August. Enjoyed seeing the d1ckhead next to me on my last flight with two masks on while I breathed unencumbered… As for lockdowns… I’m a Victorian and there’s a state and federal election this year… I think the science of opinion polls and the ever increasing proof of the mildness of the new variant will make these obsolete. Also, I think the public just won’t do another lockdown. I back anyone who wants to wear one though.

          • Yeah but
            – it doesn’t matter what you personal beliefs are
            – not useless against COVID
            – not sterilizing
            – no known loss of (other) ‘immunity’
            – wash your hands when appropriate – e.g. after toilet, sneezing, smoking, touching your face during a pandemic, etc.
            – lockdowns – Tie Me Up! and enjoy it.

          • You lost me at ***personally I think*** Penske … that you wrap some notion of environmentalism around it is just twisted pettifoggery.

            If you can’t bother to inform yourself about all the studies on masks being a cornerstone to reduction in all cases of covid, now and future, especially when married with other inexpensive and available protocols its not going to help pointing it out – irretrievable stakes in the ground. Better yet feel[tm] ***free*** to get as infected over and over as you want. Shame about anyone around you.

            The mask thing proceeds covid buddy …

          • The Penske FileMEMBER

            Did I really lose you at “personally”? I don’t think so. Vis-à-vis “all” the studies you mention about face masks I’ve seen as many pro as cons, you haven’t? How bizarre, I hope you aren’t blinkered. Also, I won’t feel free to get the Rona but lets keep it real. We’re both 90%+ chance of getting it and I hope both our journeys are OK. Look at the Aussie cricketing connection for hope. Most are informed that they have the spicy cough as they have no symptoms.

          • Yes you lost me because it would refute all the data on masks pre and now during covid. Not to mention I’ve been using them since the military, industrial work, confined space and now in my protective/ascetic coatings business.

            Tell me none of you and yours would ware a mask in those kinds of environments, of which, some symptoms to industrial exposure can take a decade or more to be diagnosed. BTW I’m not telling you to ware a mask, quite happy for the government to supply high quality masks to everyone else and then let Darwin sort the rest out.

            The only instance masks have become an issue is during covid, with mandates, and the population going nuts is the fundamentalist ideologues having a spastic about it.

          • RobotSenseiMEMBER

            Abnormal effort to inhale at this stage of development might have lasting side effects.
            Or they might turn out to be completely normal.

            It’s a real coinflip.

          • ‘Masks do nothing’

            ‘Masks will give people brain damage because they make it too hard to breathe’

          • reusachtigeMEMBER

            ^^ Yep. They are suffocating muzzles! I never wear mine properly unless the cops are around where they are mandated. Otherwise always under my chin. Always. So I can breath freely and concentrate.

    • reusachtigeMEMBER

      Makes sense to me. Smoke is way more dangerous and can cause cancers. Covid is just a bit of a cold for almost everyone.

  33. “Prime minister Scott Morrison has stressed Australia’s health systems are more than equipped to handle a rising number of Omicron infections.”

    Well, there you have it. Our most reliable reverse-correlated indicator (scummos’ lying mouth-hole) has just gone off.

    What’s the odds he’s got a Hawaii trip booked for mid January?

  34. Ronin8317MEMBER

    NSW has 20794 cases from 96765 test, positive rate is 21.5%. Slowly going up. Number of people in hospital is 1204, and number of people in ICU is 95. The trend, not the number of test, is the enemy right now.

  35. Magnus MaximusMEMBER

    Just ordered a RAV4 Hybrid and will be lucky to take delivery before 2023. They build the things in Japan and Canada with demand so great they are starting production in the US as well. I thought manufacturing was something only poor dumb countries did and smart rich countries did real estate and cafes?

    • Arthur Schopenhauer

      No, it’s rich smart countries that do manufacturing.

      Rich countries that don’t do it, become poor countries. I guess that’s your point.

      • Magnus MaximusMEMBER

        It’s just sad as we had a perfectly good Toyota factory building Camrys which could have very easily been geared to build RAV4s as well (the RAV4 and Camry are built on the same platform). We could also build Hybrid tech as we have all the necessary resources. Until Tony asked them to leave Toyota and Holden were running fine and exporting globally, Ford may have been doomed as they didn’t have an export program but the death of the Falcon would have provided a handy boost in sales to the Commodore.

    • What gets done at Toyota’s plant in Altona (Melb)? Is it just a pre-delivery parking lot? Drove past a few weeks ago and thought of the huge industrial capacity of the place just sitting idle.

      Meanwhile Ford Geelong is a covid testing centre. A Bunnings stands on the site of the Engineering/Engine test and development facility and the casting plant was razed to a bare paddock.

      • Magnus MaximusMEMBER

        I wonder what happened to all the workers who the Government assured us would be retrained into even better and higher paying jobs

    • RobotSenseiMEMBER

      No hospital is keeping data on whether the admission is primarily for Covid, or with Covid, or whether Covid is extending their length of stay. Too hard to data-capture. It is 100% correct to say that people are only being diagnosed with Covid in the context of them having another presenting complaint, but they’re still requiring single rooms, PPE to be used, risk isolating staff who look after them etc etc.

      • kiwikarynMEMBER

        Not sure why they need single rooms, just put them on a covid ward. Staff are supposed to be fully decked out in PPE so why do they need to isolate, when the PPE should be sufficient to prevent them getting/spreading the virus? Not to mention their triple vaccinated status. And if full hospital PPE is not sufficient to stop the spread, then why the **** are the rest of us all still wearing masks? Perhaps its time to accept that you might pick up covid in hospital just like a staph infection.

        • RobotSenseiMEMBER

          Because they don’t all have Covid at the same time. Some recover and don’t need the risk of reinfection. Medical staff wear PPE but it’s not 100% effective, particularly when they are spending shift after shift, patient after patient tending to them with the exact same cares they’d receive if they were otherwise a regular inpatient – hanging medication, rolling patients, changing pads etc etc. Like you no doubt know, the vaccines are not an ironclad shield to stop people catching Covid, merely to reduce the severity of their illness. The nursing staff have to isolate therefore if they become symptomatic under the new rules, which is a matter of time if you’re on a Covid ward day after day. Anyway I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to make, but you clearly have no idea of how resource-intensive the day-to-day care of a Covid patient is.

          • Clearly the medical staff need to be vaccinated more frequently against covid.

            I used to suffer from dehydration. My doctors recommended I be vaccinated with a glass of water every morning, and with booster vaccinations throughout the day. I found this vaccine to be very safe and effective.

          • kiwikarynMEMBER

            Perhaps its time to treat covid patients like they treat patients with influenza? I’m sure they dont go to all this effort for patients with the flu.

          • RobotSenseiMEMBER

            And guess what happens to patients with influenza when they come to hospital?
            They get isolated in a single room until they are asymptomatic. Staff wear full PPE and N95’s. Exactly the same as Covid.

  36. MerkwürdigliebeMEMBER

    Some cricketing one liners beamed to me this AM

    Q What do you get if you cross the English cricket team with an OXO cube?
    A. A laughing stock.

    Q What is the height of optimism?
    A: English batsman putting on sunscreen.

    Q. What is the difference between an English batsman and a Formula 1 car?
    A. Nothing! If you blink you will miss them both.

    Q. What do English batsmen and drug addicts have in common?
    A. Both spend most of their time wondering where their next score will come from.

    Q. What does an English batsman who is playing in The Ashes have in common with Michael Jackson?
    A.They both wore gloves for no apparent reason.

    Q. What is the difference between Cinderella and the Pommies?
    A. Cinderella knew when to leave the ball.

    Q. What’s the difference between the Pommies and a funeral director?
    A. A funeral director isn’t going to lose the ashes.

    • The Traveling Wilbur 🙉🙈🙊

      Very underated comment.

      Q: Why can’t Frosty The Snowman get selected for the English test team?
      A: There’s not enough sunscreen in the world to allow him to withstand the five days of fielding he’d have to contend with.

    • The Traveling Wilbur 🙉🙈🙊

      Q: Why are so many umpire decision reviews woefully criticised by the Channel 7 commentary team?
      A: Because when it’s a man pushing the DRS’s buttons he’s hardly ever going to get a reliable response.

      😳

  37. RobotSenseiMEMBER

    Government won’t fund RAT tests as they don’t want things to be free, and don’t want to undermine business.

    How many Harvey Norman shares do you reckon the average Liberal owns?

  38. macrofishMEMBER

    He (morrison) said businesses needed confidence they would not be “undercut” by free testing regimes.

    “By making that policy very, very clear, then that means the private market, whether it’s in the big warehouse pharmacies or the other pharmacies or the supermarkets, they can now go and stock their shelves with confidence that they won’t be undercut by the government,” Mr Morrison said.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-03/morrison-resists-free-rapid-antigen-testing-for-covid/100735518

    Yes lets have the virus run wild so can make some easy money

    • MerkwürdigliebeMEMBER

      When you’ve ladled out circa 500 Billion in JobKeeper and various other slops for the 1% a little post prandial cheeses and nuts is always nice………..

      As one small business gent said to me at a barbecue on the weekend

      ‘500 bucks worth of accounting advice got me twenty thousand bucks. It’s a no brainer’

      • happy valleyMEMBER

        And don’t forget John Howard’s gifts that keep on giving eg excess franking credit “refunds” to zero rate taxpayers costing other taxpayers $6+ bn annually.

    • Just like with most things the LNP won’t allow benefits for their voters as genuine competition would undercuts their donors

    • He has an election in months and me sh*ts in peoples face like this!!!???
      Everyone being price gouged for RAT tests will now have Scummo to thank. How is this not the most stupid political move possible to make on this issue? This is next level (lets go on a holiday to Hawaii as the nation burns stupid).

      What would John Howard have done?

      Scummo only has himself to blame for what is coming for this government politically.

      • The Traveling Wilbur 🙉🙈🙊

        Stay tuned. Until now it’s just been incompetence about implementing the ‘medical advice’ as slowly and as minimally as possible. That shield’s gorn now… so we’ve only just begun to stupid.

        You may want to bookmark this thread for later.

        • There’s a third step in there: malevolence. And it’s pretty hard to discern between the right mixture of self-interest/incompetence/stupidity and malevolence.

          • The Traveling Wilbur 🙉🙈🙊

            That step’s in there alright. But with these tossers it’s really easy to see when they’re stepping up to it. Unfettered joy crosses their faces during policy anouncements that implement it.

            The most recent example I can remember was declaring the continuation of the tax tier flattening.

  39. Wondering why it takes 40 years historically to get over an epidemic ?…….working age deaths up 40% in the US…..have to wait for another generation to grow up……waiting for them to start playing with the all cause mortality figures, the only ones that aren’t gamed yet. Ask for that raise when the opportunity presents now that the dying has been started in Australia.

    https://www.thecentersquare.com/indiana/indiana-life-insurance-ceo-says-deaths-are-up-40-among-people-ages-18-64/article_71473b12-6b1e-11ec-8641-5b2c06725e2c.html

    Even California is going under the pump now……..interesting comments from a NSW emergency department doctor here about the lung involvement

    https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/comments/ru3f52/reflections_from_the_emergency_department/

    • kiwikarynMEMBER

      There is another reason why American hospitals are overrun with patients who are not very sick. The US Govt agreed to pay for the medical care of everyone with Covid, regardless of legal status or health insurance. Normally, millions of people don’t have access to free healthcare so they don’t present at hospitals for the flu or other mild illnesses. Now they can get free care, they are lining up for it. Of course, while they are seeing a doctor “for covid” they can get seen for everything else at the same time.

      • Doesn’t sound like too much of a conspiracy there but I would also suggest that the 2 year fear campaign is still ringing in the ears of people. There are still a large number of people out there who believes covid is tantamount to a death sentence.

  40. Further to Reusa’s post above (search Mercedes)

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59807019

    Fkn hilarious how the CCP mouth pieces & trolls are saying the west doesn’t have the right to depict Chinese beauty when nearly all Chinese women aspire to pale skin & big eyes! Ad shows a more traditional Chinese beauty & they get smashed! 😂 like many of the other recent outrages many of the comments seem to be satire, which I read as protesting the CCP’s BS. The fact is even though they may have been western brands the ads were created by CHINESE creatives working in Chinese ad agencies (sure Mercedes agency is owned by Omnicom but it’s a Chinese dominated agency). All those ads have one thing in common, they promote a diverse range of beauty eg freckles, this the CCP does not like. Just like with them blackballing soccer players recently from showing tattoos & stopping younger ones from getting tattooed. I suspect it’s all part of the CCP propaganda push to demonise foreigners for when either Xi invades Taiwan or the economy hits hard times (will all the builders get their yearly pay cheque before CNY?) then Xi will blame it all on foreigners.

      • Yes, that was my first thought too! 😂
        Also the way they seem to assume they can speak for all Asians. Truth is it’s far more complex than just western influence eg a desire for pale skin was due to wealthy people. It’s actually very short sighted of the CCP to block film/pop/sports stars etc from having tats, dying their hair or even being “effeminate” as it’s the current fashion in most of Asia/world which could have given them a lot of soft power towards younger people.

    • Seems similar to the old whiteness products sold in Africa even back in Victoria’s days … so are you say the Monarchy is similar to the CCP – ????

      • The difference is CCP seems to be demonising their own people who happen to have narrower eyes. But, yes, both the Victorian British aristocracy & todays CCP have one thing in common they believe they were/are the worlds supreme race.

      • SnappedUpSavvyMEMBER

        Mercedes were going ‘too Asian’ and the old chip on the shoulder still kicked in, opposite to whitening or monarchies mate

  41. Oi Harry (and any other audiophile on MB) – have you tried the Tidal streaming service? They have a $2 for 3 month membership offer at the moment. It’s meant to stream with a bit rate in the several thousands (compared to CD quality which I think is usually about 328).

    I’ve got it on in the car and it really makes a difference.

    • bowerbirdMEMBER

      You can’t really compare bitrates between lossy and uncompressed (or losslessly compressed) audio. Anyway, TIDAL allows lossless streaming with FLAC. So it’s as good as CD quality, if not better.

        • Nah it’ll double in price in a year and I can use all that equity to buy more 2002 E46s.

          Plus if I live in it for a year I don’t have to pay CGT.

          • That’s personal responsibility right there.
            The only drawback I can see is that you can’t powerwalk when you’re driving it.

          • I actually think I should fill the tank using the credit card and then leverage that equity at 95%.

          • I actually prefer E46 M3 over the E90 M3, I love the S54 motor, but if I was daily driving it I’d go with the Msport 330ci (M54 motor)
            the only real problem is that all the plastic stuff (especially in the engine bay) gets brittle and snaps if you look sideways at it.
            Oh and not to forget the wiring where they used “environmentally friendly” insulation …what a joke, the insulation crumbles in your hand, lots of fun rewiring.
            From my experience the headlamps (especially the adaptive Xenon ones) are the worst offenders, the wires are just coated in a powered that used to be called insulation.

  42. Nic is a good guy.

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/the-heartbreaking-choices-we-must-make-to-juggle-hospital-resources-for-covid-20220102-p59lb9.html

    “….. this just happened to me yesterday. I went down to the emergency department because there were two patients I needed to see. They both needed to come in and the registrar and I spent some time assessing them. The hospital being full, it was a day before they got to my ward. At which time we got a message: there was a COVID-positive patient next to them, so they are both “close contacts”. I know the definition is changing hourly, but at the moment, they need to stay isolated in hospital for several days. Although we have fixed them … ready to go home … I have to keep them in. Meanwhile, I don’t have enough beds to cope with the cancer patients who really need to be with us.”

    So we have to keep patients in hospital because they became a close contact while in hospital. Even though they could otherwise go home.
    Which means there are no beds for cancer patients who need to be in hospital.

    • reusachtigeMEMBER

      Ridiculous. No one should be in hospital unless they are well and proper sick. No one should be isolating anymore unless they are unwell and have a positive test. It’s all no longer practical.

      • “It’s all no longer practical.”

        Which was the trope trotted out before delta and now omni … BTW why would anyone care about the opinion of anyone completely ignorant about a topic e.g. do you get financial advice from kids on the playground – ????

        • reusachtigeMEMBER

          Hey carnt, is mould growing under your bed where you rarely change your mask and nappy nowadays? And get this, if I get a positive RAT I sure as hell ain’t gonna out myself with a formal PCR. It’s ridiculous nowadays. You’re catching it bloke and soon enough even under you soaked bed. And I may pass you and breath on you without you ever knowing, until you get your positive test too. It’s all legal bloke and I always stretch the laws!!

    • He sounds like a good guy.

      I am amazed he was allowed to write that and have it printed in the MSM. It points out faults in the elites’ Covid action. It admits that the hospitals are doing stupid things. He admits he doesn’t have the answers.

      Go back a few months and the messaging would have been very different:
      Dr Fauci has all the answers
      The vaccines are safe and effective.
      Unvaccinated people are evil
      Vaccinate Vaccinate Vaccinate

  43. SnappedUpSavvyMEMBER

    I think we should all be very thankful for unvaxxed South Africa for this omicron variant

          • SnappedUpSavvyMEMBER

            The non peer Reviewed frog variant hasn’t really taken the world by storm, Scomo will sort it out

          • Yes its not been – yet – and I have not suggested anything like you strangely enough, but the rub is potential is there whether or not you like it. But boy oh boy you flew out the gates anyway and started trash talking and expect to be taken seriously on any matter.

            There are peer reviewed books on all this stuff which pre-dates the currant covid out break then you have history to contend with, but the best your ilk can do is seen through entire threads of comments. Which in addition makes your peer review quip even more absurd.

          • Why do you wingnuts think any of this has to do with fear, except your own. I’m not fearful but I do use information in judging risk and act accordingly until factors/information changes. No more so that running a business or investing.

          • Prove it

            Running a business or investing is not neoliberal, that is about wonky propaganda for corporatist and elites to rob everyone else of their wages and productivity.

            FFS I’ve mentioned more than a few times I don’t do Marginalist economics, IS-LM NAIRU, or accept any of the methodology used to arrive at its conclusions. Not to mention I’m the one on this blog that has been constantly anti neoliberal in all its guises.

            Just look at the medical industry and the book Science Mart or Kenneth Arrows work I pointed out again recently …. neoliberal … groan …

  44. The Travelling PhantomMEMBER

    Hey, what you doing?
    A: “nothing much just chilling, having beer, lol.”
    So he’s having beer rolling on the floor laughing?