Weekend Reading 11-12 September 2020

Global Macro / Markets / investing:

Americas:

Europe:

Asia:

Trans-Tasman:

Leith van Onselen
Latest posts by Leith van Onselen (see all)

Comments

  1. Just watching the F1 practice at the new Mugello circuit. No one has any experience there so should be a wild race.

    Ferraris look great in their retro colours for their 1000th GP. They are so as fark but at least they look good.

  2. What were we all doing on 9/11 2001?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEogeIIOJzU
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBciZFE8lAw
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POALezpF9SY

    My experience of 9/11 was this. I was living in a flat by myself in Kingston Tasmania, just around the corner from where I was then working at the Australian Antarctic Division (HR). As was my habit then I had a single glass of wine most nights then mosied off to bed after seeing the late news, having seen little of potential interest in the first few minutes of Lateline.

    The following morning my alarm went off at 0500 and I hit snooze (another habit) before thinking to myself there was something strange in the Radio announcers voice (ABC Radio). I managed to turn the radio on just in time to hear the announcer state ‘Just repeating, in what is believed to be a terrorist attack, 2 aircraft have crashed into the World Trade Center in New York, and another into the Pentagon.’

    I was instantly up and downstairs to my lounge, and the only TV. I turned it on just in time to see for the first time video, since seen hundreds of times, of a plane crashing into one of the buildings. That cut straight to more footage of one of the buildings collapsing. The only response I reckon I came out with for about the next half hour was the F word. It was such a shock I rolled up a joint and had that with my morning coffee. I was in at work just after 0700, and one of my colleagues strolled in with the observation ‘I don’t think there is anywhere in the world safer than Tasmania today.’ As my guys drifted in the events in New York were the only subject of discussion, and all the talk was fairly hushed.

    As fate would have it I was slotted in to a meeting with a batch of engineering types at 0900 and popped around to chat with the engineering honcho circa 0830. It was he and one of the people with him who first put into my mind ‘Did you see the way they came down – almost like a controlled demolition.’ I hadn’t thought about it beforehand, but the moment I did think about it I did start to wonder about how ‘neat’ the collapse had seemed. It was all so incredibly stunning. The dust covered survivors walking down streets clouded with concrete dust and the replays of the footage of the planes ploughing in, and the buildings coming down.

    Later that morning I called a couple of mates in Defence in Canberra (Russell), mainly because I knew a couple of people from Defence who had been seconded to the Pentagon, and was told there was no information about them. Then an hour or so later I was told that they were in San Diego, and were quite OK. One of the people I called told me that they had just found out that Ahmed Shah Massoud (in whose exploits we had shared an interest) had been pronounced dead (there were earlier reports he had been injured) though there was no mention of it being related to events in New York.

    In the months that followed I was preoccupied with work issues, but aware that the attack would have major consequences. I could understand the Americans wanting to hit something or someone, but never thought there was any substance to the idea that Iraq had had anything to do with what had happened, and assumed the only reason Australia was playing any part was because JW Howard had actually been in the US at the time, and had promised Australian military support. I recall watching Colin Powell’s presentation to the UN trying to link Iraq with what had happened, and wondering if even he believed what he was saying. My take was that most people I knew bought the idea the Americans had some right to get whoever had been responsible, but they never went within a bull’s roar of establishing that Iraq had had anything to do with it.

    I think the George Bush, Dick Cheney and Tony Blair show which went over and over how the ‘world’ had to act has had a major long term effect – the line that we somehow had to believe them on seeing things ‘through the prism’ of 9/11. All the global protests and the Europeans, in particular, holding off in supporting the Iraq link, sort of cemented in the idea that the people at the top were committed to going ahead with an Iraq invasion regardless of what the people on the ground – particularly the English speaking world, the US, UK and Australia – thought, and expected in terms of ‘proof’ or justification.

    They cashed in a fair bit of the ‘western’ world’s ‘belief’ in itself. People have simply stopped believing their elected leaders in the years since. They may not have had all that much belief prior, but they definitely had less after. And that diminished belief has played out ever further through the years since.

    • I was spending the day at a cable ski park for a friend’s birthday party (we were 14 or 15). I had worked late the night before and only woke up just before getting picked up to head to the park, had no idea what had happened and my mates were trying to explain it to me. When we got to the cable ski place my first viewings of the whole thing were on a massive flat screen. That footage 1st time on a commercial jumbo screen was something else.

      I knew it was something huge, my mates didn’t give a toss and were already on the water. There were two older guys also watching, probably 18-20, I turned to them and said “Well, the world will never be the same again” and they turned to me, laughed and walked away.

      I learned that day that the average Aussie punter is an idiot. Never forgotten that moment, the lesson felt more important than the event.

    • I was in Beijing, house sharing with another Aussie, a Swiss Thai girl and I think an American bloke. Someone called to tell us what was happening. I’m pretty sure it was around 8.30/9 pm. We didn’t have access to foreign tv at our place so we all (minus the yank, I think he was our partying at Sanlitun) went to my housemate’s German boyfriend’s apartment (he was a proper expat, unlike the 4 of us who were povo local hires, and had access to satellite TV). They weren’t so good on censorship then. We switched between CNN and the BBC all night before reluctantly jumping in a taxi to get some sleep before going to work. All of us knew we were watching the world changing and we were uncertain what it meant for our lives in China.

    • I was in a bar on a Thai Island, with some Americans, at the first plane some started dirty Flight attendants/pilots jokes but after the second plane, everything on the Island went silent, absolutely silent, only some Muslims couldnt restrain to smile front of their tv (that was a bit obvious).Weird times for sure.

    • I was in Atlanta, doing a career fair in one of the major universities, walked in to see the footage of the first plane hitting the tower. The entire place was eerily quiet, noone bothered setting up, just watching the screens. Saw second plane hit in real time. Called my friend who was connected to federal law enforcement, was told to get out as they were contemplating martial law for all large metropolitan areas. Good thing I drove in from my city, with all flights cancelled there were no hotels left to be booked. Packed my stand and drove out, was glued to the tv for the next day or so, until the news announced that a passport of one of the hijackers was recovered at the scene. Knew at that point we were being sold a story. That truly was a day America changed and not in a good way.

      • “news announced that a passport of one of the hijackers was recovered at the scene. Knew at that point we were being sold a story.”

        Could you please elaborate on this. I dont understand what it means.

        • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

          There’s only one thing we need to know.

          The tower fell faster than gravity.

          It was pushed down with explosives, and was therefore extremely likely an inside job.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            Is that an attempt at a gotcha?

            Try harder.

            Disprove the physics of it falling faster than gravity.

          • I reject the premise of your assertion. You made the claim, you provide the proof (1) that the building did actually fall faster than gravity (2) that if it did that there is no reasonable explanation for that (3) that I should give half a fvck about some half-baked conspiracy theory from loony tune like you.

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            Triage

            I don’t have to prove it. It’s already been proven.

            And I’m loony? Wow.

            BTW, I’m no conspiracy theorist. I’m just stating what I see that has somehow escaped MSM, you, etc etc.

            It was pushed down.

            lol. The left and their reliance on science…(selectively and exclusively when it suits them).

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            Smithy

            I went to defend that with “I’ve got a science degree” (though not in physics)…but I think I’d rather say “you’re a condescending little man who consistently proves he knows very little about anything”

            I just can’t take a Greens voter seriously.

            With what you advocate, you reached a new low yesterday calling others “anti-society”.

          • Uh huh. And what were they pushing against ?

            Perhaps the very same thing that makes rockets fly past the altitude where jet stream is not pushing against ground: Air?

            A plane that travels vertically down falls faster than gravity pull. Primary school physics.

            LOL, I bet this one was not explained on “skepticalscience”

          • How big of an explosion do you think is necessary on top of a building to impart a meaningful downward force ? Do you think it would be visible ?

            (It’s probably worth pointing out that the standard conspiracy theory states that the towers fell at “near free-fall speeds”, not that they were “faster than gravity”.)

          • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

            “How big of an explosion do you think is necessary on top of a building to impart a meaningful downward force?”

            Enough to bring a tower down.

            “Do you think it would be visible ?”

            No. I’ve seen building demolitions with zero obvious signs of explosion.

            “(It’s probably worth pointing out that the standard conspiracy theory states that the towers fell at “near free-fall speeds”, not that they were “faster than gravity”.)”

            So faster than gravity can’t be described as “near free-fall speeds”?

            As usual you duck and weave.

            I reckon I know more about physics by mucking around with fireworks as a kid and observing the world than you claim you know (or rather imply you know).

            You are full of it.

            Theres one thing we need to know.

            The tower fell faster than gravity (a time tested proven scientific theory).

            It was pushed down.

            Im smart, but I’m not smart enough to understand why you aren’t embracing the chance to excuse the official people accused like you normally would. Im missing something.

          • No. I’ve seen building demolitions with zero obvious signs of explosion.

            When they demolish buildings with explosives, they don’t squash them down from the top, they take out key supporting structures so they fall (into/onto themselves, assuming everything goes correctly).

            So faster than gravity can’t be described as “near free-fall speeds”?

            Not really. “Exceeding free-fall speeds” maybe.

            I reckon I know more about physics by mucking around with fireworks as a kid and observing the world than you claim you know (or rather imply you know).

            LOL. I got an A in Physics at high school but haven’t used it since. A middle-school student would know more than I remember. But Newton’s laws are pretty fundamental stuff.

            The tower fell faster than gravity (a time tested proven scientific theory).

            It was pushed down.

            It didn’t and it wasn’t. There are _multitudes_ of resources on the intarwebs showing this.

          • 》How big of an explosion do you think is necessary on top of a building to impart a meaningful downward force ? Do you think it would be visible ?《

            Sorry, my response was on a smug skepticalpseudoscience dismissal of a valid scientific assertion (things can indeed fall faster than gravity pull). Not on if known scientific fact suits one or another narrative

            I dont know what “standard conspiracy” theory says… my knowledge of events stops at point that not all adds up as MSM suggests

          • Sorry, my response was on a smug skepticalpseudoscience dismissal of a valid scientific assertion (things can indeed fall faster than gravity pull).

            Actually, I responded to “it was pushed downwards”.

            And your example was a plane flying downwards. That’s not “falling”, it’s…. flying downwards.

            “Falling”, by definition, means gravity only. Ie: trying to turn a plane into a big lawn dart by pointing it at the ground and maxing thrust isn’t “falling”.

            But even that aside, I never suggested it was impossible to… let’s go with “accelerate faster than the rate of gravity allowing for relevant factors like air resistance”, since that’s clearly the intended meaning, just that if you were going to say that a building was “pushed downwards”, you would need something to push against (with an implied commensurate amount of force to matter – so if you’re pushing against “air”, a pretty fvcking big bang).

            I dont know what “standard conspiracy” theory says… my knowledge of events stops at point that not all adds up as MSM suggests

            Right. So you don’t known anything about the conspiracy theories, just the ‘not-conspiracy-theories’ saying not everything “adds up”.

          • Actually, I responded to “it was pushed downwards”..

            My example was a plane travelling downwards by being pushed against, wait for it, “air” – faster than the free fall. This implies only one thing: anything can fall faster than free fall, contrary to the pseudoscientific assertion:
            It was pushed down with explosives.
            >>
            Uh huh. And what were they pushing against ?

            And your example was a plane flying downwards. That’s not “falling”, it’s…. flying downwards.
            “Falling”, by definition, means gravity only. Ie: trying to turn a plane into a big lawn dart by pointing it at the ground and maxing thrust isn’t “falling”.

            Er… nope it isn’t.
            If plane could remain floating in air when assistance ended you would be right. But the very definition of what is a “fall” is irrelevant in this case (i will come to this).
            A fall (travel downwards) faster than gravitational pull requires assistance and a push against “something” (say ‘air’, it is near by). This relates to original correct assertion that any chosen building too *can* be assisted to fall travel downwards faster than gravity pull by “being pushed down against something” like say “air above them”. It implies that if something travels down faster than gravitational pull must have assistance of a choice (say rocket fuel, jet engine or perhaps explosives).

            Right. So you don’t known anything about the conspiracy theories, just the ‘not-conspiracy-theories’ saying not everything “adds up”.

            Huh?

            I said I do not know what a standard conspiracy is and what makes a conspiracy “non-standard” – meaning I have no clue what the standard is.

            I do not have to support any opinion, be it “conspirational” or not, to see that something is not right or does not add-up. This is akin to noticing that one instrument is not in tune with the rest of the symphonic orchestra, irrespective of the music they play. You are effectively trying to argue that if the music played is not what you like or can comprehend – all instruments must be out of tune and at times that there are no instruments.

          • This implies only one thing: anything can fall faster than free fall, contrary to the pseudoscientific assertion:

            My comment says nothing that excludes anything from descending faster than “free fall”.

            “Falling” means descending under the force of gravity, not being “pushed” towards the ground by an engine or explosive.

            Er… nope it isn’t.

            Yeah, it is.

            But the very definition of what is a “fall” is irrelevant in this case (i will come to this).

            It’s relevant, because the whole stupid argument revolves around something “falling” – or, more accurately, descending too fast to be considered “falling”.

            I said I do not know what a standard conspiracy is and what makes a conspiracy “non-standard” – meaning I have no clue what the standard is.

            Yet the hill you’re dying on that “doesn’t add up” is one of them.

          • My comment says nothing that excludes anything from descending faster than “free fall”.

            “It was pushed down with explosives.
            Uh huh. And what were they pushing against ?
            >>then
            “It was pushed down.
            I don’t think a physics-based explanation is going to help you much.

            LOL… you got physics based explanation

            “Falling” means descending under the force of gravity, not being “pushed” towards the ground by an engine or explosive.
            Nope, this it isn’t the limitation of the word “fall”. “Free fall” is defined as above – under pull of gravity alone.
            This nonsense peddled ad-infinitum begs a sarcastic response, but nope, i will pass.

            Yeah, it is.
            LOL, must’ve passed Monty Python’s Argument Clinic with flyin’ A’s?
            YT: Monty Python’s Argument Clinic

            but the very definition of what is a “fall” is irrelevant in this case (i will come to this).
            It’s relevant, because the whole stupid argument revolves around something “falling” – or, more accurately, descending too fast to be considered “falling”.

            LOL, I agree… if something falls faster than a “free fall” (hint: free fall is gravity pull “unassisted”) it must have been assisted with a force which includes (but not limits) to “pushing” against say “air”. The point you dismissed in the no less than 2 comments above and now you come to claim it in a sudden 180° turn….

            Yet the hill you’re dying on that “doesn’t add up” is one of them.
            I just asked what a “standard” of/for conspiracy is as something you mentioned above in parentheses.
            My hill is the one where science is dismissed because it does not suit a chosen narrative, e.g. quotes above in bold.

            Conspiracies (or not)… well, those that are the most loud and dismissive *for* any of them are the same pond as those that are loud and dismissive *against* them. Same religion, just a different deity.

          • Nope, this it isn’t the limitation of the word “fall”. “Free fall” is defined as above – under pull of gravity alone.
            This nonsense peddled ad-infinitum begs a sarcastic response, but nope, i will pass.

            https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fall
            1. to drop or descend under the force of gravity, as to a lower place through loss or lack of support.

            (I look forward to our next episode of Pedantry R Us where I assume you’ll say everything descending is doing so under the force of gravity even when it’s getting a help along from a jet engine.)

            LOL, I agree… if something falls faster than a “free fall” (hint: free fall is gravity pull “unassisted”) it must have been assisted with a force which includes (but not limits) to “pushing” against say “air”. The point you dismissed in the no less than 2 comments above and now you come to claim it in a sudden 180° turn….

            Er, what ?

            The whole point here is that a) it didn’t fall faster than “free fall” (ie: the premise for suggesting it was “pushed” is wrong), b) that’s not how building demolitions are done and c) if an uncontained explosion at the top had pushed the building downwards, said explosion would have been… obviously large.

            Hence the reason why a “physics explanation” isn’t going to be helpful – because it’s just going to be repeating the things which are being implicitly dismissed.

            You have somehow managed to extrapolate that into an assertion that it is impossible for an object to accellerate downwards at a greater rate than gravity.

            My hill is the one where science is dismissed because it does not suit a chosen narrative, e.g. quotes above in bold.

            LOL.

            Your entire focus in this discussion has been obsessive pedantry around words, rather than what a building being ‘pushed down faster than gravity’ implies “scientifically”. Clearly you have zero fvcks to give about “science”.

          • ^ ^ ^

            From your referent site: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/free-fall
            1. the hypothetical fall of a body such that the only force acting upon it is that of gravity.
            Alas, science is difficult, and pedantic.
            This and above is addressing smug quasi-educated comments like “Uh huh. And what were they pushing against ?”, “I don’t think a physics-based explanation is going to help you much.” within contexts as above.

            Er, what ?
            As I implied mate, primary school physics, uncharted waters for some.

            The whole point here is…
            I don’t doubt there was an attempt at a point, however your conspiracy based point was not the focus of my comment. I responded, lemme repeat, at when “science is dismissed because it does not suit a chosen narrative”. I.e. saying that a building cannot fall faster then a free fall as there is nothing to push [down] against!

            Your entire focus in this discussion has been obsessive pedantry around words,
            Pedantry in words is foundation of science and not even close to implied pedantry as seen in colloquial conversation.

            rather than what a building being ‘pushed down faster than gravity’ implies “scientifically”.
            Exactly what I proved above the difference between a “free fall” and a “fall”… but that “pedantry” exposes comprehension deficiency of science in comments you made above

            Clearly you have zero fvcks to give about “science”.
            LOL, clearly! …because I learned science in school, not on “skepticalscience” or the ilk.

          • I responded, lemme repeat, at when “science is dismissed because it does not suit a chosen narrative”. I.e. saying that a building cannot fall faster then a free fall as there is nothing to push [down] against! I.e. saying that a building cannot fall faster then a free fall as there is nothing to push [down] against!

            Which was, lemme repeat, not something I said.

            If you want to get antsy about science being dismissed because it does not suit a chosen narrative, you need to be talking to Rich. Because the “science” matches the “narrative” that the buildings collapsed as expected when their internal structures were weakened by fire, not that there was a controlled demolition (with or without a giant explosion on the roof to push it down faster than it could fall).

            Exactly what I proved above the difference between a “free fall” and a “fall”

            You “proved” what now ?

            “Falling” is when something is accelerating under the force of gravity.
            “Free falling” is the hypothetical maximum acceleration that could be achieved from gravity (usually assuming little or no air resistance).

            Neither involved external forces pushing.

    • Will never forget that night….
      I knew immediately what had happened. Tell you all next year for the 20th anniversary. If we’re still here….

    • I had an exam to take that morning. My dad called out to me when he heard me up and said, you’ll never believe what happened. A plane flew into the world trade centre last night and then another plane flew into the other tower. I was just thinking, what an incredibly klutzy coincidence, what could have gone wrong? When he said them a third plane flew into the Pentagon… only then did I start to grasp that it could have been deliberate.
      Took the exam, I remember an American student saying, after it, that the exam should have been cancelled. Went into work and no one said anything about it in my little pod. But then also no one really spoke. I couldn’t understand how no one could be talking about it. Not entirely sure there wasn’t an element of idiot average Aussie punter as Winning says but maybe people were just too stunned. I was sure the US would retreat to isolationism. how young I was.

      • Yeah I think the first day no-one really said anything, we were at the uni tav watching what would become 24/7 rolling news feeds for weeks.

        Actually the first day no-one thought it was over, especially when the flight over Pennsylvania went down. Then the Anthrax attacks started…

    • SoCalSurfCreeperMEMBER

      I was in Hsinchu, Taiwan (ROC) and had just settled into my hotel room after arriving by taxi from Chiang Kai-shek (Taipei) airport. It was fairly late at night. I had been upgraded to a giant corner suite for no particular reason. My 12 hour flight from San Francisco, where I had been living for almost a year, was uneventful. I plugged my laptop into the hotel ethernet (hotels didn’t yet have wifi, even in Taiwan) and the yahoo news ticker I had installed scrolled ‘plane flies into word trade center’. “That’s weird” I thought, picturing a single engine prop plane like a Cessna 172. I kept unpacking and eventually flicked on CNN and saw that it was a Boeing not a Cessna and by that time there were 2 planes. Saw the towers fall live on TV. Phone calls to Australia and the US. Eventually got to bed and to sleep. I don’t recall what time. I went into my company office in the Hsinchu Science Based Industrial Park, which is where the biggest concentration of semiconductor Fabs was. Very strange day. My Taiwanese associates and customers knew that the world had changed but nobody knew what to say or said very much. I worked a normal day but wasn’t very productive. I ended up staying for the business trip as planned, and flew back to San Francisco on a nearly empty United 747 about 2 weeks later.

    • Reus's largeMEMBER

      I was working at a investment bank in London, it was surreal watching it all unfold on live TV on the trading floor.

      • Yep, same. Front row seat for all the action. When the first plane went in there was barely any panic by the media and they were actually reporting it as a ‘suspected light aircraft’. There was really little damage from the first impact (initially) but when that second went in and exploded in a fireball everything went haywire. Trading desks shut down across the City but out Gilts trader said: fck this for a game of soldiers, we’re open for business! He made over two million sterling that day – trading gilts and US treasuries with whoever wanted some action. Bid Offer spreads you could drive a truck through but when everyone else is shut, you call the shots.

        All public transport in London was shut (If I recall) and around 3.00 a mate and I ended up walking from the City to a pub in Kensington to have a few birthday beers (his birthday). The whole day was quite emotionally draining – just stunned disbelief.

    • I was smoking bongs watching TV, in Perth during my seconde degree stint, when all of a sudden on the ABC they show a building on fire in New York. Then about an later a plane flies straight into the other one. It was crazy.

      By the way kids, pot does not kill long term memory…

      • Absolute BeachMEMBER

        Good on you for being honest Mig. I was pretty much doing the same thing at Burleigh Heads. Had been having beers with a neighbour who was an ex-ABC reporter. I had gone back home and turned on the TV- there was a truly fruity doco on Casius Clay/Ali late on ABC..maybe 11.30pm. I had just played the bamboo trumpet and was laughing at what an arrogant media performer Ali was. And he could fight..
        Next thing the ABC cut to a US news channel and it was surreal. I thought it was part of the doco until I zoned back in. The first plane had hit, and the coverage was a slow panic. So I picked up my mobile and rang my neighbour to check he was watching it as well. He was. Then the next plane hit while I was on the phone. We didn’t have anything else to say. Things had changed forever.

          • Absolute BeachMEMBER

            That’s gold Mig. I guess it was the era of TV- limited passive options for baked folks at 11.30 that night.
            Haven’t things changed since then. Earlier that night my mate (and his Canadian brother-in-law) had commented that suddenly ‘to Google’ was a verb- a year before it was just another new search engine. Pretty sure my mobile phone didn’t have a camera (maybe a purple Erikson or Nokia..), my TV was a cathode ray and I had been looking at cars for sale in the Trading Post earlier. It was made of paper and I paid money to buy it. Most people who bought stuff from me then sent a cheque to pay. We had a website for the biz but no ecommerce. People I knew were starting to buy on Ebay but I was still sus. Flying to Melbourne seemed like a fair chunk of coin and overseas calls cost dollars. BUT my mate had shown me Napster and suddenly music was free. I’d seen Cruel Sea at the Playroom and magically I had all their songs on my PC- sadly beer still cost money which seemed unjust.

          • What’s funniest is when you mentioned I clearly remember doing a double take thinking it was part of the doco! They were doing some pan scene and the 60s everything was burning anyway hahaha

    • I was late getting up, our 9 month old baby had been screaming all night teething or something.
      I had the news on while I ate breakfast and thought it’ll just be another boring day nothing much happening. When I got to work everyone was in the conference rooms and corridors watching the news about the first plane. I hardly had time to wrap my head around that idea before we all saw the second plane real-time crash into the second tower.
      The Twin Towers were near and dear to me, I had attended innumerable meetings with Merrill Lynch loved the view loved the architecture. Suddenly they were all gone, friends were gone, buildings were gone, morality was also gone. The atmosphere in the office was one of FTS. I worked with a lot of ex military types and everyone of them was ready to signup, ready to make America great again, and every T head in the world, needed to know that they were serious, deadly serious. There were two ex Seals that were on the phone to Pentagon officials when the Pentagon was hit.
      Needless to say 9/11 wasn’t a good day for me.
      To understand why Iraq was targetted you only needed to know that for most Americans the T head’s needed to pay with their lives, and that Iraq was the only ME country that was a politically viable target. So Iraq became the target and everyone got on with the task of producing the evidence. Nobody actually thought that Iraq was involved but that knowledge simply wasn’t relevant. After 9/11 we all danced a dance that could have only one end, nobody wanted to hear reason, we had a clearly defined objective so everyone got on with the job.

          • Stewie GriffinMEMBER

            Building 7 is indeed one of the most suspect features of the entire day – no surprise that the media never focus on it. “Pulling” a building takes weeks if not months of planning, it isn’t something that can just be done in an afternoon.

            I was up that evening, after a late sports game driving a friend home when news of a ‘suspected light aircraft’ hitting the WTC came over the radio. I got home and on a whim turned on the TV just in time to see the 2nd airplane crash into the tower, thinking it was the first plane, only to realise like the commentators that it was a 2nd. Watched both towers fall eventually went to bed only to get up to see building 7 ‘collapse’… you can see the little puffs of smoke ripple down the building before the cascade commenced.

          • “Pulling” a building takes weeks if not months of planning, it isn’t something that can just be done in an afternoon.

            Therefore Occam’s Razor suggests…?

          • 》Therefore Occam’s Razor suggests…?《

            Nonsequitur,
            inference was not that it was done in the last minute but that the whole thing was planned with enough time at hand e.g. months ahead.
            Occams razor is not applicable to a cherry picked event within a massive events scene.
            If anything, given that the most powerfull empire with intelligence tentacles the size of epic Medusa was taken down like a 3rd world breakaway region, Occams Razor suggest explanation you’ll not like.

          • Stewie GriffinMEMBER

            Occam’s razor would suggest that WTC 7 was the first and only (along with WTC 1 & 2) steel framed buildings ever to collapse from a fire.

            But I’m glad you’ve finally accepted Occam’s razor as a valid means of critiquing convoluted theory, like white privilege and the reason why differences in group population outcomes may differ simply because we as population groups are different, as opposed to an unmeasurable and unquantifiable social construct of rac!sm in the supposed freest and most egalitarian societies to ever have existed.

            Occam’s is just the sophists way of saying “The simplest explanation is most likely the most correct.” But that is not the same as saying “The simplest explanation is ALWAYS correct.”

            What would Occam’s razor actually say if we changed the question to one like “Do Conspiracies exist” or “Do people and Governments conspire?” Occam’s razor would be forced to admit that the simplest explanation for corruption and malfeasance to exist in society, is because people do conspire as opposed to people randomly engaging in activity that just so happened to produce a criminal outcome.

            It is because people live complicated lives, our societies are complicated, our alligences are complicated, and our goals are often complicated and contradictory – with all this complications that we take for granted in other aspects of our lives, why do we always assume the biggest events that shape our collective societies aren’t complicated?

            So while Occam’s razor is a useful heuristic to generally safely arrive at the correct answer, it does not necessarily mean that we will always arrive at the right conclusion – it may just mean we are naive.

          • Nonsequitur,
            inference was not that it was done in the last minute but that the whole thing was planned with enough time at hand e.g. months ahead.

            Wait, really ? NO WAY !!!!

            Occams razor is not applicable to a cherry picked event within a massive events scene.

            Because….?

          • Occam’s razor would suggest that WTC 7 was the first and only (along with WTC 1 & 2) steel framed buildings ever to collapse from a fire.

            No it wouldn’t, because that’s a statement of fact not an explanation of anything.

            Occam’s razor would be forced to admit that the simplest explanation for corruption and malfeasance to exist in society, is because people do conspire as opposed to people randomly engaging in activity that just so happened to produce a criminal outcome.

            Why ?

            It is because people live complicated lives, our societies are complicated, our alligences are complicated, and our goals are often complicated and contradictory – with all this complications that we take for granted in other aspects of our lives, why do we always assume the biggest events that shape our collective societies aren’t complicated?

            I don’t think anyone has suggested that the events leading to the September 11 attacks weren’t complicated.

            But this is about how a building fell down, not generations of geopolitical conflict. When the choices of how that event occurred are “an operation taking weeks to months of careful planning and intrusive processes directly involving dozens to hundreds (at least) of people with tens of thousands of potential witnesses and implicitly leaving extensive physical evidence was executed in complete secrecy and/or covered up successfully before and since” vs “a building collapsed due to structural weaknesses induced by fire in an understandable and explainable (and explained) way”, it is the former explanation that requires extremely compelling and credible evidence – and there is none, just “god of the gaps”-esque handwaving.

            The fact it was the “first” of anything is completely and utterly irrelevant, no matter how much the lizard brain looking for reason, intent and justification in every event of personal significance wants to make it so.

          • @ smithy

            》Wait, really ? NO WAY !!!!《
            Haha, nice shift from Occam’s Razor misuse.

            》Because….?《
            Because events which are integral part of a bigger environment are influenced from outside cherrypicked micro cosmos and such influence would be incomprehensive from within (or be observed as deus ex machina – which is not).

          • Because events which are integral part of a bigger environment are influenced from outside cherrypicked micro cosmos and such influence would be incomprehensive from within (or be observed as deus ex machina – which is not).

            This is gibberish.

          • Stewie GriffinMEMBER

            Occam’s razor would suggest that WTC 7 was the first and only (along with WTC 1 & 2) steel framed buildings ever to collapse from a fire.
            “No it wouldn’t, because that’s a statement of fact not an explanation of anything.”

            Is statement of fact that the buildings fell down because of fire? No. It is a statement of fact that the buildings fell down, it is a speculated reason that the most likely cause of the building falling down was because of fire – they are two separate things. One is an observation of fact, the buildings fell, the second is the explanation for the facts occurrence.

            Occam’s razor would be forced to admit that the simplest explanation for corruption and malfeasance to exist in society, is because people do conspire as opposed to people randomly engaging in activity that just so happened to produce a criminal outcome.

            “Why ?”

            Yawn – if you can’t work that out for yourself then you really are hopelessly lost in some social construct. Conspiracy’s exist and if Occam’s razor admits that there was at least one conspiracy involved with Sep11, does that automatically preclude that there is no possible way that there could be a second separate conspiracy carried out simultaneously to ensure that the first conspiracy was more successful than what could ever have been wildly possible to imagine?

            When the choices of how that event occurred are “an operation taking weeks to months of careful planning and intrusive processes directly involving dozens to hundreds (at least) of people with tens of thousands of potential witnesses and implicitly leaving extensive physical evidence was executed in complete secrecy

            What like the sort of weeks and months of planning that went into training a bunch of goat phucking rag heads to learn to pilot a plan long enough to fly it into a building? Because no Govt or Govt agency, or even conspiracy of like minded individuals within an agency, are as apt or capable of ever equaling or exceed what a couple of those fanatics did in with planes?

          • Is statement of fact that the buildings fell down because of fire?

            It is in your original statement because it wasn’t phrased as a question asking for an explanation.

            Conspiracy’s exist and if Occam’s razor admits that there was at least one conspiracy involved with Sep11, does that automatically preclude that there is no possible way that there could be a second separate conspiracy carried out simultaneously to ensure that the first conspiracy was more successful than what could ever have been wildly possible to imagine?

            Nope.

            Occam’s Razor doesn’t say that the controlled demolition conspiracy is impossible, it says that it’s unlikely to be the correct answer.

            What like the sort of weeks and months of planning that went into training a bunch of goat phucking rag heads to learn to pilot a plan long enough to fly it into a building? Because no Govt or Govt agency, or even conspiracy of like minded individuals within an agency, are as apt or capable of ever equaling or exceed what a couple of those fanatics did in with planes?

            It’s unclear why you think this is a comparable scenario other than the word “conspiracy”.

          • Stewie GriffinMEMBER

            “Is statement of fact that the buildings fell down because of fire?”

            It is in your original statement because it wasn’t phrased as a question asking for an explanation.

            Enough of your pilpul what I said was clear enough for most people reading in good faith to understand.

            It’s unclear why you think this is a comparable scenario other than the word “conspiracy”.

            What I think is that I am dissatisfied with many aspects of the official narrative and explanations around 911, the collapse of building 7 for example.

            Given its importance as a defining event of our era it is worthy of having additional scrutiny and skepticism applied to its acceptance, especially in terms of who stood to benefit. Competing narratives should not necessarily be blithely and unconditionally dismissed as ‘impossible’ simply because it would render so many truths and assumptions about our society false.

          • RobotSenseiMEMBER

            So after 19 years, are we any closer to working out who caused the twin towers and building 7 to collapse under explosives rather than because two passenger jets full of jet fuel barrelled into them? Because to get on board that theory, you’d want to have a suspect, and a motive. And that part just seems to be glossed over in the great “9/11 was an inside job” idea.

          • Enough of your pilpul what I said was clear enough for most people reading in good faith to understand.

            No it’s not. As written it’s a nonsensical statement.

            Given its importance as a defining event of our era it is worthy of having additional scrutiny and skepticism applied to its acceptance, especially in terms of who stood to benefit. Competing narratives should not necessarily be blithely and unconditionally dismissed as ‘impossible’ simply because it would render so many truths and assumptions about our society false.

            LOL.

            They aren’t dismissed “simply because it would render so many truths and assumptions about our society false”, they are dismissed because of how improbable, implausible and unsubstantiated they are.

            Which is, as you would say, clear enough for most people reading in good faith to understand.

          • Stewie GriffinMEMBER

            Enough of your pilpul what I said was clear enough for most people reading in good faith to understand.

            No it’s not. As written it’s a nonsensical statement.

            “Occam’s razor would suggest that WTC 7 was the first and only (along with WTC 1 & 2) steel framed buildings ever to collapse from a fire.

            I see I am going to have to spoon feed you…. here comes the air-o-plane:

            This contains a) a statement of fact i.e. the building fell down and b) a hypothesis that the building fell down due to fire. Occam’s razor would always in the first instance suggest the building fell down because of fire, because of the observable fact that a fire took place in the building, over other theories such as the actual cause of the buildings collapse was a controlled demolition that took place by independent malfeasent actors with advance knowledge of the impending attack…. an attack mind you which was the first co-ordinate one of its kind events to have ever occurred.

            So as implausible as it was that a bunch of goat phucking rag heads trained to become pilots to carry out this attack, the equal implausibility of other actors involving themselves suddenly makes any counter narrative totally preposterous?

            “They aren’t dismissed “simply because it would render so many truths and assumptions about our society false”, they are dismissed because of how improbable, implausible and unsubstantiated they are.”

            You simply lack the imagination to doubt something is anything other than it seems, that combined with the thought that the world is not exactly as you see believe it to be, in your black and white reality, horrifies and frightens you.

            I simply doubt the completeness of the official narrative.

          • Stewie GriffinMEMBER

            RobotSensei – a basic SWAT analysis over the likely outcomes of a direct attack, not to mention such a personal affront to America and its psyche, can easily shake out a number of actors that would stand to benefit from an enraged American Golem attacking and destroying it’s enemies in the middle east in the name of its ‘War on Terror’…. I’m sure you’ve seen that winter Olymic’s sport of curling. After releasing the curling iron, the participants never touch the iron again as it makes its way ponderously and inevitably towards it target, all they do is melt the ice slightly in front of it to facilitate and influence its direction.

            PS: No – unfortunately after 19 years we are no closer to ever being sure as to what absolutely certain what really happened on 911… nor will we ever be. All the evidence of the greatest crime ever committed on US soil was sent for land fill and recycling…. they are still rebuilding French planes that crashed in the Atlantic 10 years ago piece by piece, but the WTC? That was turned into razors and yuppies retaining walls.

          • This contains a) a statement of fact i.e. the building fell down and b) a hypothesis that the building fell down due to fire.

            Right. So kind of like how someone would treat “the man died from a shotgun blast to the face” after seeing a painstaking forensic reconstruction of how a shotgun went off in his face as both a statement of fact and a “hypothesis” rather than simply a statement of fact ?

            Occam’s razor would always in the first instance suggest the building fell down because of fire, because of the observable fact that a fire took place in the building, over other theories such as the actual cause of the buildings collapse was a controlled demolition that took place by independent malfeasent actors with advance knowledge of the impending attack…. an attack mind you which was the first co-ordinate one of its kind events to have ever occurred.

            You keep saying this “first time” thing like it’s relevant.

            So as implausible as it was that a bunch of goat phucking rag heads trained to become pilots to carry out this attack, the equal implausibility of other actors involving themselves suddenly makes any counter narrative totally preposterous?

            It’s unclear why either four men learning how to fly a plane, or twenty men carrying out a co-ordinated attack are “implausible”, when millions of others have done these things. Even hijacking planes wasn’t particularly unusual an event, having happened hundreds of times beforehand.

            And, again, this has absolutely nothing to do with what makes the controlled demolition narrative “preposterous”. Even if it were somehow demonstrated the planes really were flown by Mossad using remote control, it still wouldn’t do anything to change the likelihood that the buildings were destroyed by a controlled demolition.

            I simply doubt the completeness of the official narrative.

            LOL.

          • Stewie GriffinMEMBER

            This contains a) a statement of fact i.e. the building fell down and b) a hypothesis that the building fell down due to fire.

            Right. So kind of like how someone would treat “the man died from a shotgun blast to the face” after seeing a painstaking forensic reconstruction of how a shotgun went off in his face as both a statement of fact and a “hypothesis” rather than simply a statement of fact ?

            I guess if anyone had any doubt about the hypothesis that it was a shotgun blast to the face that killed him, they could ask for an autopsy and look at the evidence…. what about for the biggest crime in the US…. err… razor blades and landfill. How many independent investigations and analysis conducted over the biggest crime and most profound event of the early century? Zip.

            It’s unclear why either four men learning how to fly a plane, or twenty men carrying out a co-ordinated attack are “implausible”, when millions of others have done these things. Even hijacking planes wasn’t particularly unusual an event, having happened hundreds of times beforehand.

            Yet the possibility that there were other actors at play, is preposterous, because false flag operations and attacks have never been committed before in an attempt to drag the US into long and costly wars? What war has been longer and more costly than the War on Terror?

            https://theintercept.com/2017/06/06/fifty-years-later-nsa-keeps-details-of-israels-uss-liberty-attack-secret/

            The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. The fact is that there are conspiracies taking place in the world right now, some of which will never be discovered. There are a number of issues with the official narrative of 911, starting with Building 7 and the dancing Israelis.

            I simply doubt the completeness of the official narrative.

            LOL.

            …and yet you laugh. There is no evidence to disprove my doubts and prove your beliefs, as I’ve said, it has all been destroyed. You’re point here is what? To lecture me that my doubt is preposterous and that your belief is inline with the official narrative? Bravo – stunning and brave.

            My position is that I doubt the completeness of the official narrative.

          • I guess if anyone had any doubt about the hypothesis that it was a shotgun blast to the face that killed him, they could ask for an autopsy and look at the evidence….

            What, twenty years later after the body was cremated ?

            what about for the biggest crime in the US…. err… razor blades and landfill. How many independent investigations and analysis conducted over the biggest crime and most profound event of the early century? Zip.

            Yes, you’re right. Nobody investigated the September 11 attacks at all.

            At least, nobody who gave you the answer you want.

            Yet the possibility that there were other actors at play, is preposterous, because false flag operations and attacks have never been committed before in an attempt to drag the US into long and costly wars? What war has been longer and more costly than the War on Terror?

            You can throw as many appeals to emotion around it as you want, but the core proposition – that a complex, time-consuming and intrusive process involving dozens to hundreds of people was planned, executed within view of tens of thousands of potential witnesses, and subsequently covered up without the slighest shred of credible evidence in twenty years – remains improbable, implausible and unsubstantiated compared to the alternative explanation that a couple of planes and some massive fires dun it.

            There are a number of issues with the official narrative of 911, starting with Building 7 and the dancing Israelis.

            Your whole argument is basically ‘conspiracies happen, therefore another scenario involving a controlled demolition must be considered equally as plausible as the one where a couple of planes flying into buildings causes immense damage’.

            …and yet you laugh.

            I do. Genuinely and IRL LOL. Because your “I simply doubt the completeness of the official narrative” justification is so hilarious and blatantly dishonest that it’s impossible not to.

            There is no evidence to disprove my doubts and prove your beliefs, […]

            Well nobody could disprove “there might be an alternative explanation”.

            But there is certainly plenty of evidence to disprove the idea of controlled demolitions.

          • Stewie GriffinMEMBER

            I guess if anyone had any doubt about the hypothesis that it was a shotgun blast to the face that killed him, they could ask for an autopsy and look at the evidence….

            What, twenty years later after the body was cremated ?

            Who said anything about waiting twenty years? There were complaints into the clean up of the WTC and the destruction of evidence within days of the attack. By The end of September 130,000 tons of debris, most of it steel, had been removed from the site and sent to Korea and China for recycling, permanently erasing any chance of further independent analysis and ensuring that no one could ever do any further checking other than the one hundred and fifty items of steel, out of all those hundreds of thousands of tons, were put aside.

            As I said, they painstakingly reassembled French passenger planes that crashed into the Atlantic for over a decade, but practically all the evidence associated with 911 was permanently destroyed within days of the buildings coming down… people were screaming blue murder about the destruction of evidence practically from day one – if your head was not so far up your own ass you may have heard of some of these complaints inside of 20 years.

            Anyhow back to as you were, fighting skepticism to the official narrative.

        • The Zionists know a thing or two about immoral actions, ends justifying the means etc.
          In this regard they are in no need of instruction from the US. I doubt anyone will ever know the full extent of their advanced knowledge / involvement in 9/11.

      • ErmingtonPlumbingMEMBER

        A couple of nukes would’ve cost a sh!tload less than trillion dollars and 5000 and 3500 coalition lives lost in Iraq and Afghanistan.
        Still that Trillion dollars made a lot of people rich I suppose and who would the US have Nuked?
        Those plane hijackers were all Saudis weren’t they? What city in Saudi Arabia could they have targeted in retaliation?

        • The whole purpose of the war in Iraq was to show the ME region that the US believed in retribution.
          If you kill one of ours then we’ll kill 10 of yours, if you don’t want that outcome then you need to police your own radicals.
          Don’t you think the irrationality of the US’s actions in Iraq sends a stronger message than some measured targetted response to the groups that were responsible for 9/11? As in I don’t give a flying F which of you DC’s did this, if it happens again we’ll destroy another ME country (looking straight at the Saudi princes)

          • There was only one winner from the whole mess. Only one country felt safer after all the waste of lives and money. They would fight until the last American life.
            Little clue , the Saudis were useful idiots on the planes. But one country in particulars secret service was at the helm.

    • I was literally playing Counter-Strike at a mates place. So fitting for that moment. Comments in the onscreen chat spread the news, ‘Watching 10 , a plane just flew into the world trade centre!’

    • I was hanging out with my mates Haseen and Aqib in New Jersey. We went outside and danced and cheered on the roof, joined by thousands. It was quite a day.

    • On a flight, Singapore to Frankfurt. I wasn’t too sure what the announcements were about, or why there were armed guards to greet the plane when it landed. It wasn’t till I was on the train and a passenger showed me the paper with all the photos when I realised what had happened.

    • I was installing some equipment at a major US defence installation. Man, that was a wild, wild time.

    • Was playing games (funny, can’t remember what – probably Quake) with the other people in the house when one of them with a TV told everyone to “come in here right now and look at this”.

      Watched the second plane hit and then the subsequent tower collapses live.

      We were initially worried about some mates who were exchange students and had headed back to the states only a month or so beforehand, but they were fine.

      Fully expected bombs to be dropping in the ME within a week. Ended up taking them a month.

    • Was flying Heathrow to Singapore. In the middle of the night, the flight tracker showed a big bend around the Middle East and running late. Nothing said until coming into land the pilot said he would explain at the terminal but we would not believe it.
      When planes hit towers, our flight was about to go over Iraq so was told to divert well south.

      • Probably not. There weren’t any air-routes over Iraq at that time. Flights from Europe to SE Asia would route over Turkey-Iran-Pakistan or from the eastern Med over Syria then take a turn south over Jordan and in to Saudi airspace. It might have looked like you were heading for Iraq but the air-route would have taken a right turn to go down to Saudi. I know. I used to do it.

        I was in a hotel in Karachi watching CNN/BBC. Went down to dinner just after the south tower collapsed.

    • I was out of bed , one of my kids was sick.
      Turned on the television while I was waiting to see if the medication kicked in.
      Didn’t see it happen, but shortly after I think.
      Remember thinking wow, this changes the world forever , and I’m usually not that full of insight.
      Watching those people jumping , knowing there were no nets below. It was repeated over and over.
      The kids spent the whole day watching Cartoon Network,- I was trying to shield them a bit.

        • Mining BoganMEMBER

          There’s a great French documentary made by a journalist who was filming with a NYFD crew on that day. While everyone is discussing the next plan of action all you can here from outside is the massive thumps as the jumpers were hitting the ground.

          Surreal and awful.

          • I was in the Metropolitan Fire Brigade here in Melbourne for 11 years (I’m not a firey). I was speaking with a Commander named Joff Manders – he told me how he had been in NYC less than a year before 9/11 doing an emergency management presentation to NYFD. The scenario he presented? A plane hitting a high rise building. Although he concedes the scenario involved a small plane, not a passenger jet let alone two of them. True story.

    • They cashed in a fair bit of the ‘western’ world’s ‘belief’ in itself.

      Yep, this is a huge effect. Politicians have always been liars, but Blair/Bush/Powell exposed it. Since then we’re’ living in an alternate facts universe.

      What’s worse, and a corollary of this is that since 9/11 we’ve been prosecuting journalists and whistleblowers who exposed things like western torture camps and killing of civilians.

      We heard nothing from the main media outlets or even the ABC or SBS about Julian Assange’s Stalinist show trial in London this week. Crickets. Thus we slide into ignorant darkness.

    • On that day, I was at Sydney Airport waiting to board a flight to HK, Didn’t have mobile internet back then, so I was accessing Stratfor on the internet kiosk to see what is going on.

      The neo-con who pushed the Iraq War proved to be totally incompetent. The US distraction in the Middle East allow for Russia to get back on its feet, and China to become a regional power. Hubris has caused downfall of Empire, and ‘promoting democracy in the Middle East’ is the pinnacle of hubris.

    • ErmingtonPlumbingMEMBER

      Good call Gunna.

      I had returned home from A late session at the cinemas In Macquarie Centre.
      The wife and I along with a couple we were friends with had gone to see a re-screening of the 1973 film The Exorcist.
      We had a spliff in the car before we went in and laughed our heads off at every ridiculous horrid scene in the movie. It ran like a Comedy for us.
      When Linda Blair projectile vomited all over that poor persevering younger priest we were the only people among the over 100 in the Cinema laughing uproariously. Everyone else seemed horrified (there were no doubt a lot of first timers to the movie and most of the Asians were Christian I suspected which made it fun to watch their reactions to the “evil bits” over our shoulders)
      Anyhoo after a Coffee we got dropped of at home by Bec and Pat and the wife and I started getting ready for bed. Just as I’m falling of to sleep Pat rings my mobile (about an hour after dropping us off) and says,
      “Scotty Have you got the TV on”
      “No” I says
      “Then turn it on”
      “Which channel” I ask
      “Any Channel” he says
      I stayed up all night watching the media speculation and hysteria unfold.
      Rang my supervisor in the morning to say I wouldn’t be coming in.

    • “because JW Howard had actually been in the US at the time”

      Yes he was. He was in Washington the morning of the attack. The night before I’m pretty sure he had dinner with Murdoch.

    • It took 6 weeks for a card from Toronto to arrive a couple of months ago. Then 4 weeks for a small package (I have friends who love me!😊)

      Maybe something has improved with flights or maybe I’m an eternal optimist?

      • I got a parcel from New York Thursday- took 10 working days.
        Waiting for a letter from Thornbury( on the other side of Melbourne, probably 20 k away).
        We are up to 11 working days on that, and not a sniff of it yet!
        I would say the mail delivery is still a little patchy.

        • Arthur Schopenhauer

          Yes, I can confirm Colin. The second and third order effects of corona are just starting to be felt. The age of everything being from everywhere is over, at least for the next few years.

          (Not only do we not make much, we also don’t stock much, because holding stock costs money.)

    • 4 weeks for an ordinary letter to get from Melbourne to Canberra yesterday. They need to increase executive pay and bonuses at Aussie post to improve thing.

    • I had one delivered two weeks ago that landed in Australia in late May! For what it’s worth there’s only one package left outstanding, things seem to moving again

    • ErmingtonPlumbingMEMBER

      I want to buy the Pixel 4a which has been released but nothing on the shelf.
      You have to order on line and everyone is saying it won’t come till late October.
      Supply chain issues or just simple postal issues?

      • Supply chain issues all over the place. I’ve been trying to bring forward purchases for projects on the farm, for months now covering electronics, machinery, chainsaws, building materials, hardware, kitchenware, photography, astronomy, amongst others and the amount of stuff that is out of stock everywhere is astounding…

      • Supply chain issues.

        Most of that sort of thing used to come in as air freight on passenger planes. Now with nowhere near as many passenger planes flying, it’s coming via ship.

        We had to send a _letter_ urgently to the US a couple of months back and were advised that even paying $30 for International Express, they still wouldn’t be able to guarantee delivery in less than 10 business days (typically 2-4).

    • Australia Post has to be one of the sorriest excuses of an organisation, they must be trying to model themselves of USPS.

    • I confess to feeling some Schadenfreude over Disney’s ludicrously expensive movie bombing – aside from the human rights abuses and kowtowing to an authoritarian state, it was meant to be a paragon of ‘wokeness’, with a female lead / hero, the director a female (this is the most expensive film ever made directed by a female) and blokes portrayed as hapless or evil (or both).

      Anyhoo, some poetic justice, which is good to see. As the old saying goes: get woke, go broke.

      • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

        Seems some of the protesting is about not being woke enough.

        The West is being run by weak men and women.

        We deserve to lose our country and that’s what’s going to happen.

      • Stewie GriffinMEMBER

        Yeah – I watched it last night with my daughter. Most Hollywood films nowadays are paragons of wokeness, think the last three terrible films in the Star Wars saga – how else will they get nominated for their ‘Best Film’ Academy award without the correct regulation display of diversity?

        https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-54082567

        The number of past ‘Best Films’ that would not have won due to them not conforming to the new diversity regulations:

        https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/movies/story/2020-09-08/academy-oscars-inclusion-standards-best-picture

        Prepare to sit through innumerable period films filled with an implausible number of people of colour (and varying sexual orientations), simply to make them feel more included in the present by cutting ourselves out of our past. Pretty soon the only uncontested role that will be left for wh!te people to play in the movies will be as the villain.

        But I digress… Mulan itself laid it on pretty lightly, apart from the basic story line of a girl rejecting societies norms that she not be good at anything other than being a homemaker. The movie was also made for the Chinese market and they have a very specific word for those progressive woke types – Baizuo!!

        • Ha ha, yes. The latest Star Wars – what a travesty. These days the Casting Director is the most important person involved.

          I just refuse to give Hollywoke any of my dollars anymore.

        • Arthur Schopenhauer

          As with algorithms, those who buy the most cinema tickets, buy the cultural angle. The US is no longer Hollywood’s biggest market.

      • The fact that the Chinese gov sent the word out to Chinese media not to focus on it is shall we say delicious? Haha. Sell your soul and you don’t even get what you paid for. Never ever forget that lesson when dealing with the CCCP. I think Disney are greedy idiots with poor risk benefit decision making abilities ininin Thuthisthis innIninstance

  3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8Ks9fUh2k8&ab_channel=Dr.JohnCampbell
    First clinical trial on Vit D and covid treatment.from spain.
    The patients all received standard covid treatment. One group received a Vit D analog in addition to the standard treatment.
    Allocation to each group was randomized.
    Results are
    50 patients treated with the extra vit D analog = 1 person (2%) needed ICU admission.
    26 patients that received standard care only = 13 people (50%) needed ICU admission.

    why would you not take VitD.

    • boomengineeringMEMBER

      Why would yo not take Vit D via sunlght naturally instead of popping pills.
      Water not that cold this morn but gotta get home for the hot sshower reward

      • Winter. Skin tone. Line of latitude where you live. Unable to get out between 11am and 1pm in summer (angle of the sun through the atmosphere inhibits UVB as it is very low energy compared to UVA. And when you do, you have clothes that restrict UVB skin absorption. There are lots of reasons to supplement with VitD. But if you can expose your whole body at regular times, yes VitD created via skin absorption is the better option

        • boomengineeringMEMBER

          Correct.
          Also a few MBers have signs of depression and sunlight helps that as well.
          Btw Vit D is not a vitamin but a hormone.

          • boomengineeringMEMBER

            lol .
            First Angry is correct on all counts then Frosty tops it off by laughter is good medicine.
            Off the subject my mate wanted to use my $50K home Colchester lathe and I absolutely detest lending tools out especially knowing he dosent look after borrowed tools. All good now, he did his job without incident.

          • I hate lending my car or bicycle out, they always come back different.
            Books: crack the spine, never return it, it’s all good.

          • The old country had a saying: never lend out your horse, your gun or your wife. I have to add: your chainsaw or your lathe.

    • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

      Metabolising Vitamin D along with milk tolerance had a huge part in migration 100k years ago.

      Pretty interesting stuff. Also relates to lactose tolerance and race present day.

      I know people who work in underground mines who routinely have to take Vitamin D.

    • call me ArtieMEMBER

      Angry Man. I am aware of that report. It does seem very promising. However I would urge anyone thinking about it to actually read the reports. The Vitamin D used for the tests is actually a metabolic product of Vitamin D, in other words, highly concentrated in form compared to commercial Vit D. And the doses are massive. My quick calculations tell me that you would need to be taking something like 40 Vitamin D capsules per day to equal the effect of the regime used for the tests. Taking 40 commercial Vit D capsules per day would be exposing yourself to risks outside of normal safety testing paramaters for the manufacturers due to various impurities and by-products you would be consuming. I would just urge a little caution and research before jumping in too fully.

      Boom Eng…it will be obvious from what I have said above that we are not talking normal Vitamin D production from sunlight exposure here. This is a fairly extreme experimental testing situation. However, I repeat, the results seem very encouraging

      Artie

  4. NEW ZEALAND …

    Building on the rise in Christchurch as almost $1 billion of new homes approved … Liz McDonald … The Press / Stuff NZ

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/122686351/building-on-the-rise-in-christchurch-as-almost-1-billion-of-new-homes-approved

    Home building is on the rise in Christchurch, as a growing population and low interest rates combine to boost demand for properties.

    The past year has seen almost $1 billion worth of new homes approved in the city, the most affordable of the main centres for housing. … read more via hyperlink above …
    .
    .
    … Wait for Statistics New Zealand’s NEW (standard international industry measure) ‘consents rate per 1000 population per annum’ release at the territorial authority (local Council) level for August, at the end of this month. Here is the earlier NEW one for the month of June, released at the end of July,, across the country and at the regional level.

    The fascinating national consents rate graph since March 1966 incorporated within the article tells a huge story ! …

    Estimated number of new homes consented per 1,000 residents up in June year … Statistics New Zealand

    https://www.stats.govt.nz/news/estimated-number-of-new-homes-consented-per-1000-residents-up-in-june-year

    … extract …

    … From 30 September 2020, Stats NZ will release data each month on the estimated number of new homes consented per 1,000 residents. These series will be at the following levels:

    • national
    • regional
    • territorial authority area
    • Auckland local boards

  5. Amazing how quickly fortunes change – a couple of weeks ago Anastasia Palazcuk was the toast of Queensland for her handling of the pandemic. Now that same handling has come back to bite her. From hero to zero …

    • I think she’s gone. QLD Libs are awful but I think the chook is cooked.

      I also hope that crook Jackie Trad is punted from parliament.

    • Typical Murdoch operation against a Labour gov…….not going to get them anywhere around here I will be surprised if the LNP get 20 seats this time with that airhead of theirs as leader.

    • Mining BoganMEMBER

      Because of the funeral beatup? My Qld connections are of the opinion that she’s in the same boat as everyone else and that she must be part of Scummo’s house of paedos to get all his attention.

      • Aren’t there a few thousand Australians still stranded overseas that the great scummo could positively do something about? But yeah, look!! squirrel!!

        • RobotSenseiMEMBER

          All the feds are lining up. Dutton has shot his shot. Laming (hilarious) is on the socials tonight having his go. I never knew there were so many social justice warriors in the federal LNP ranks. There is still hope.

      • Quite possibly. I keep switching between the ABC and 4BC when driving to and from work (in the interests of balance 😉 ) and certainly 4BC we’re dropping bombs on Anastasia but even the ABC we’re verging on critical. And the Courier Mail has turned on her too.

        We’ll see what people say at the polls!

  6. “Winding back JobKeeper and JobSeeker will push 740,000 Australians into poverty” – The Conversation

    Help me out with the math here.

    All those on JS before the Covid bonus were not in poverty and now the bonus is being reduced (not eradicated) is going to condemn them to poverty?

    All those on JK are not in poverty currently (and weren’t before Covid) but a small reduction in JK will plunge them into poverty?

      • No arguments with that. The headline should then say that people will be ‘returned’ to poverty as opposed to condemned to poverty – as if all was rosy beforehand.

        I’m on the warpath with journos – they are lazy, deceitful and traffic in clickbait.

  7. Actual skilled worker gets rejected 16 times

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-12/border-force-under-fire-for-travel-exemption-processes/12654080?section=politics

    Mr Woodward, who lives near the UK city of Liverpool, was found to have such skills and received a Temporary Skills Shortage visa, but was continually denied permission to travel and take advantage of that visa.

    He was offered a job as a senior physiotherapist by Sydney-based Physio Inq a few months back, after the firm spent months unsuccessfully trying to fill the role. His partner also lives in Sydney.

    The physio practice specialises in aged care, as well as services for people on the NDIS.

      • +88 – maybe if they offered a decent salary they might have had better luck sourcing a qualified local (I read somewhere that registered nurses in the aged care sector get paid about 20% less than in other sectors).

    • Mining BoganMEMBER

      Nobody did.

      Funnily enough I switched over to watch the bicycle race last night and there’s a documentary on about Bush. It ended with a little quote from some dude not a cyclist but interesting enough and he’s saying the lies about WMD would end public confidence in governments. Much like Gunna said above.

    • Locus of ControlMEMBER

      I can highly recommend Lawrence Wright’s book ‘The Looming Tower’ as an aid to making sense of 9/11 and the main players.

    • desmodromicMEMBER

      Saudis are major sponsors of terrorism and we choose to ignore the fact even when they target us, the price of business.

      • Locus of ControlMEMBER

        Agreed.

        & whilst I’m making recommendations, I’ll just say that IMO the best explanation of “the business” I’ve ever heard is Adam Curtis’s ‘Bitter Lake’.

  8. Totes BeWokeMEMBER

    I’m at the beach watching people in designer active wear (some ridiculously hot), sipping on lattes (good for vitamin D as per previous post), walking their $5k puppy, all talking about real estate… .I kid you not….every conversation that’s walked past me in the last 20 minutes is typically 2 chicks or guys talking about how much they’re worth and how clever they are for being all in.

    Thinking to myself these people have no understanding of what’s unfolding for their futures personally, socially, mentally, environmentally and economically.

    Now I’m just going to bask in the sun and stop thinking about how doomed our country is because of the way these spoiled brats vote.

    Hang on…botox and lips i didn’t mention. These people have spent many thousands on themselves within months. All debt im guessing.

    • I sold a supra 5 speed to Ford V8 bellhousing to a bloke that works there. Dropped it off. Got a personal tour.

      • Yeah it seems that ADRs killed them off. Got too expensive. You’d think they could have got a small car manufacturer exemption or the Government could have helped smaller start ups in some way. I’m all for safety and ADRs that make sense but not if it’s going to kill innovative start ups.

        • ADR does not have to be a killer of innovation, EU got rules to the Nth degree and there are startups (Rimac?)
          The market was always very small for kit cars and the risks are always big.
          I reckon consumerism is what killed it… not ADR.

          • Cost’s likely haven’t helped, but there’s still other niche/quality products existing in Oz, it’s the only type of manufacturing we have left. Anyone who moves in these circles knows demand exists in Oz & there is wherewithal to match it convincingly. I’ve been lucky enough to have had some good chats with a few of these blokes over the years & it always comes down to the frustrations built within ICV’s/ADR’s everytime you ask – any supply is purposefully regulated to death, as they’re hung out to dry on ever changing rules that break them & they’re still griping about it into their 80’s. Volume manufacturers, Supercar manufacturers, distributorships, they lobby to keep things just the way they are. Small builders & kit cars built out of recycled cars are both niche, but why is there a market for them most other places but not here…..?

          • why is there a market for them most other places but not here…..?

            My take is that people are focused on accumulating wealth through assets (house) inflation which makes money spent on innovation stupid. I admire only a few things in US culture but innovation is still the best over there (even when it is self destructive) and part of the reason is that many can solve their residential question within 5-10 years of employment and then devote the rest of the life to creativity *probably not any more but the momentum is still there).
            Whom will buy a niche hand made car if they have to live 2 lives to pay off a house in Aus? OTOH, those with lots of money do not have tax benefits to push them towards innovative.
            Sigh…

          • Arthur Schopenhauer

            There is no Manufacturing ecosystem here. Germany has a bunch of mid-sized companies in each field & staff flow between them. Japan, Taiwan and Korea likewise.
            There are no giant shoulders to stand on either. So it’s a lonely road, with little support.

  9. Hanno Son of Bomilcar

    who remembers the war on terror

    lmao

    what a joke that was

    covid is the new that except instead of having to take our shoes off at the airport and put our laptop in a plastic tray we have to wear depends adult diapers on our face and wash our hands with industrial grade goop every time we want to walk into coles

      • Yikes. Too many god botherers in this country. Politics especially is rife with them. Apparently Gladys is surrounded by Opus Dei. Them! You’d think they’d be keeping quiet with all the priests but there they are still there stuck on the shoe of public life

    • Mining BoganMEMBER

      The annoying bit is that Twitter was all over the land development angle from the time that bozo opened his mouth. Everyone knows it wasn’t about koalas but I’m still yet to see a journo mention it.

    • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

      If Greens were an environmental party they’d be running Australia.

      Greens are an open borders socialist party and are in the way of a genuine environmental party forming.

      Ergo, koala threats are entirely the fault of the Greens.

    • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

      Oh ooo oops o. Oakshot wrote that.

      The guy who gave Labor government. Watched them lose control of borders, ber, batts, renege on Wilies pokies reform, nbn.

      Oakshot damaged the Independent brand, damaged Labor and Greens, and now wonders why koala habit is threatened?…FMe.

      • The Greens aren’t socialist because open border immigration is pure neoliberalism.

        They’re fake greens and fake leftists.

        • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

          Absolutely true.

          Anyone who understands that should be yelling it to the moon.

          Im probably as left as anyone on here when it comes to the environment and workers rights.

          Welfare? Not so much.

        • It is amusing to see people call the Greens “socialist” with examples that typically aren’t (high immigration, UBI), while ignoring the policies they have that are (workers rights, extensive public services, industry regulation).

          But that’s because “socialism” to conservatives is just an epithet, not a word that actually has meaning – SOP.

          • Socialists are people-centric. They put people before all else, including the environment.

            The Greens are duplicitous and dishonest in that they hide behind the “green’ mantle to get votes and to disguise their socialist agenda.

            If they cared an iota for the environment they would have been going all out exposing the immigration rort that’s brought this country to its knees for the last forty years. Their pretense that immigrants are somehow refugees and we can welcome all comers cos we’ve got so much to give, and anyone who opposes this is a dirty raycist, is beyond despicable and illustrates they neither know nor care for this country’s tragic environmental demise.

            The world’s most notable scientists and academics acknowledge the number one environmental problem is too many people combined with rampant consumption. It’s hardly rocket science. A five year old can comprehend if there were no people, the world would be just fine.

            The harm their deliberate fakery and deception has done is beyond calculation and can never be reversed.

          • Socialists are people-centric. They put people before all else, including the environment.

            No, socialists are people who think the means of production should be controlled by the people.

            Past that it’s you, not “socialism”.

            The Greens are duplicitous and dishonest in that they hide behind the “green’ mantle to get votes and to disguise their socialist agenda.

            The Greens are “disguising their socialist agenda” ?

            Not according to people who try to use phrases like “socialist agenda” as jump scares !

            Or anyone else, really. I mean, what do you think they’re “hiding”, exactly ?

            The world’s most notable scientists and academics acknowledge the number one environmental problem is too many people combined with rampant consumption. It’s hardly rocket science. A five year old can comprehend if there were no people, the world would be just fine.

            Well, no they couldn’t, because without any people the five year old wouldn’t exist.

            Which is, I’m happy to admit, a stupid answer. But no dumber than the utterly pointless rhetorical retort of “would the environment be better with no people?”.

            Of course it would. But the problem we have is the people are here, and I’m still waiting to hear an ethical solution for meaningfully reducing global population in a useful timeframe.

            Meanwhile, there’s *loads* of stuff that can be done around reducing consumption and increasing efficiency without seriously impacting quality of life. Though suggesting it usually draws the quick and savage ire of people who throw around epithets like “socialist agenda”. Which is an *actual* issue that is “beyond calculation and can never be reversed” because it’s been going on for fvcking decades that could have been used usefully (and would have helped with population as well).

            The harm their deliberate fakery and deception has done is beyond calculation and can never be reversed.

            LOL. Got hyperbole ?

            The actions of the Greens have been barely consequential to outcomes in Australia, let alone globally.

      • He did not set out to change the world : he set out to get as much $$$$ as possible from the ALP into his electorate. Port Macquarie got a lot of money from the Federal government spent there because of Oakeshott.

        • Totes BeWokeMEMBER

          True. I have seen that, though the nation needed him and he let us down immeasurably.

          I haven’t really thought a lot about it until I saw his name on that article. He should have guided Labor to do the right thing.

          Disappointed Robb. Disappointed.

      • The guy who gave Labor government. Watched them lose control of borders, ber, batts, renege on Wilies pokies reform, nbn.

        Agree on poker reform but the rest of those things were Rudd era – nothing to do with Oakeshott. In any case, the BER, NBN and Batts were perfectly fine ideas.

        But Oakeshott did help give us a carbon tax (briefly), plain packaging on cigarettes, Institutional Child Abuse RC and NDIS and helped remind everyone what a nob Tony Abbott was.

    • Kambah! Who knew. Tuggeranong is the land that house renovation forgot. Some great places that could be turned around in a beautiful but soulless valley. As long as you can live with being tailgated by a fuqwit ute driver every time you commute.

  10. Oh FFS did anyone see this, from you know who, the grand poobah, elder statesman of immigration journalism himself… George

    Even a year without mass migration risks turning a health-induced recession into an economic catastrophe. Sydney’s property bubble could burst – perhaps Melbourne’s as well. Adelaide’s population will stagnate, and possibly start to fall. Large parts of regional Australia will face the twin pincer of population decline and accelerated ageing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/sep/10/the-long-shadow-of-the-virus-means-there-is-no-easy-path-back-to-prosperity

    • Regional Aust is booming. Drought long gone but drought assistance is still in place, record prices for grains, beef and lamb, now jobkeeper and seeker.

      Land values going up as people move from the cities. This will be backfilled once the borders open. No crash coming.

    • I saw it but didn’t read it. His last mass immigration boosting article nearly gave me a stroke I was so so so ANGRY after reading it. All I can from that excerpt above is bloke is an idiot who can’t think logically our factually and is blinded by dogma and how intelligent heat thinks he is. And fck me he used the word bubble!!!!! Argh i mean come on use your effing brain. Bubbles pop dumb @rse, it’s an intrinsic part of their nature

  11. On a warm summer’s evening
    On a train bound by 5ks
    I zoomed up with the gambler
    We were both too tired to sleep
    So we took turns a-starin’
    Out the window at the dankness
    The boredom overtook us
    And he began to speak
    He said, “Son, I’ve made a life
    Out of readin’ people’s faces
    Knowin’ what the cards were
    By the way they held their eyes
    So if you don’t mind my sayin’
    I can see you’re out of aces
    For a taste of your whiskey
    I’ll give you some advice”

    So I handed him my mortgage
    And he drank down my last rate cut
    Then he bummed a cigarette
    And asked me for a jobkeeper
    And the night got deathly quiet
    And his face lost all expression
    Said, “If you’re gonna play the game, boy
    You gotta learn to play it right
    You’ve got to know when to hold ’em
    Know when to fold ’em
    Know when to walk away
    And know when to run
    You never count your money
    When you’re sittin’ at the table
    There’ll be time enough for countin’
    When the dealin’s done

      • From memory they didn’t take him to the WC 2019 either, not that it mattered, batting let us down.

        • He was coming back from injury at the time so didn’t really have any cricket under his belt. That was the excuse anyway. He’s so far superior to either of the Richardsons and NCN its not funny.

  12. Some of you may be interested to find out that my FB page with over 45,000 followers (ADV that some of you on here follow) has been shadow banned in recent days – for putting up articles critical of Dan Andrews and questioning the merits of lockdowns and masks.

    I am also getting daily alerts from FB regarding changes to terms and conditions happening on the 1st of October – which say “Effective October 1, 2020, section 3.2 of our Terms of Service will be updated to include: “We also can remove or restrict access to your content, services or information if we determine that doing so is reasonably necessary to avoid or mitigate adverse legal or regulatory impacts to Facebook.””

    It would appear that the great social media purge is starting – with anyone who speaks out agains the narrative potentially being a target. The idea of it is to make sure that FB and Twitter have no “defamation” or other legal risk – with everything passed onto the users who now need to be easily identifyable.

    The new T&C’s also ban people from creating profiles not using their “real name” and “real photo” – for this purpose as well.

    Because I’m outspoken about China (and many other issues) – I’ve chosen to keep my page as anonymous as possible to protect both my professional career and also the safety of my family – but it appears my ability to do that as a political commentator on social media going forward could have it’s days numbered as the laws, rules, and topics we can and cant discuss evolve.

    Has anyone else noticed this?

    (P.S. thankfully Mig and I still banter a lot on Twitter, and I haven’t had warnings on there so far!).

    • “We also can remove or restrict access to your content, services or information if we determine that doing so is reasonably necessary to avoid or mitigate adverse legal or regulatory impacts to Facebook.”

      This is effectively editorial and there is a big chance someone influential can use it to reclassify them as news provider.

    • Let’s wait for the sudden spike in Finance and Treasury positions in late September when the Bob and Jane Dobalinas’ “resigned”.

  13. “Almost 1000 fewer elderly Australians died in aged care homes during the first seven months of 2020 than the same period last year, despite the deadly COVID-19 outbreaks that have spread through the sector.”

    Clown world

    • Perhaps because physical distancing works for, wait for it, ××× all ××× viruses, even those most of us will consider harmless but they devastate elderly?

      Not that i support this half cocked lockout regime…

  14. Victoria has 46 new cases – France is getting nearly 10,000 a day
    What on earth is Dan Andrews doing?

    French Prime Minister Jean Castex says his government is not planning a new, nationwide lockdown to contain a resurgence in COVID-19 cases, but would instead implement a raft of less radical measures.

    France has the world’s seventh highest coronavirus death toll, and President Emmanuel Macron’s government is trying to curb it while ensuring that economic and social activities, such as school education, can continue as much as possible.

    Castex said new measures would include fast-tracked testing for priority cases to reduce time spent waiting for results, and targeted restrictions in areas hit especially hard.

    “The virus is with us for several more months and we must manage to live with it without letting ourselves get drawn once again into a narrative of nationwide lockdown,” Castex said in a televised address.

    France reported 9406 new cases on Friday, following 9843 new cases on Thursday.

  15. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8722847/Top-QC-says-Dictator-Dans-coronavirus-curfew-invalid-Melburnians-ignore-it.html

    https://constitutionwatch.com.au/breaking-news-high-court-writs-lodged-against-the-state-of-victoria-for-constitutional-violations/

    Its not just internet crackpots but actual QCs now

    I think this seals Chairman Dan is the most inept and perfidious Australian politician in history

    Belt and road
    Strong cities network
    The quarantine fiasco
    Illegal and completely unnecessary curfew
    Bizarre lockdown plan
    General ponzi enabling

    He needs to go right now

    I’m sure Sweeper is preparing a paean

    • He will be lauded a hero when he walks out to the MCG on Boxing Day and tosses the coin to a thriving Melbourne in the midst of summer. People throwing a tantrum at the last mile will soon forget when they are out and about whilst people cower in fear in nations around the world.

          • I’m working full time again, still don’t see the point in paying for membership. Got anything else? Or will you just keep posting repeatedly the same tired crap like you have been for months?

            I’m serious, you’re not right in the head and you need some help.

          • How about you address what I have written?

            I was correct about everything from the start

            It’s going to be very difficult for you to accept that

          • what have you been right about?

            btw the only mistakes Dan Andrews has made is not extending the payroll tax relief and not going after the media. They have undermined the health message from the start.

          • desmodromicMEMBER

            Sweeper, probably right about the end point and totally deluded about the sequence of events that get us there. ‘Survival of the fittest’ was never politically or morally acceptable. All strategies are a step into the unknown and 20:20 hindsight is cheap.

          • I don’t think they will get the endpoint right either. There is a strong likelihood there will be a vaccine – which we were told was impossible.
            Not only were the arguments and predictions wrong, the framing was wrong.
            There never was a choice between lockdown v stay open or trade off between health and economic aspect.
            Choice was preemptive lockdown by the state and keep economy on life support v delayed private sector lockdown accompanied by panic and complete economic free fall. That was the choice.
            And all the arguments showed a basic lack of understanding of human nature. eg. that politicians voluntarily create depressions, families cheerfully go about their lives following the rainbow to herd immunity, health workers will continue showing up to work when the shtf etc.

        • Pretty much everything you’ve posted that I have seen has turned out to be correct. I am dumbfounded how intransigent some people are that they tie themselves in knots trying to deny what has become obvious.
          I’m not sure if it’s pride, stupidity, or if they need the MSM and bureaucrats to tell them what to think and believe, however nonsensical. Whatever it is, it’s sad for everyone because until more people wake up there isn’t much hope.

    • Goldstandard1MEMBER

      I just got buzzed by REIV and they said 100% the arrogant tosses.
      1 auction and cleared. Embarrrassing.

    • Mining BoganMEMBER

      You should have watched the mighty Queensland Reds roll the Rebels to move into next weeks final against the Brumbies. Although I didn’t watch it. Stupid not free to air sport. Yay for Brad Thorn but. First saw him play in a state schoolboys comp when my mate’s lad was playing for one of the regional teams. He monstered everyone. Think he’d already been signed by the Broncos by then.

      I’m also about to lose the preliminary final in Supercoach. Tragedy. Plus my footy team is a useless mob of thugs. Stupid sharks. Oh there’s a thig called Mumford plays for GWS in the AFL too. Ban him.

          • Mining BoganMEMBER

            Yeah, though their returning players have missed a lot of footy. Good defence. Easts had injuries too but have the firepower. Penrith has had a relatively injury free year and just play solid footy. Canberra and Parra don’t score enough points. Souths do but geez they leak easy tries.

            Newcastle and Cronulla are pretenders.

          • Argument on the aftershow that Knights knew they were in the final tonight, so rested stars like Ponga.

      • The best thing about this is, I won’t get my hopes up for the finals.

        Listening to the wireless in the car on 702 this arvo, some loon said “This is the game Newcastle shows that they are genuine finals contenders”.

        I half smiled then, LOLed now.

    • adelaide_economistMEMBER

      Naturally. The Singaporean “obsession” [read rac!sm] is explained as being due to “economic uncertainty” [read migrants taking their jobs]. Thankfully not a feeling any wh!te Australians have had any reason to feel over the last two or three decades as entire industries were eviscerated and world-beating immigration was run into a depleted jobs market while being told as legacy population they were, how did Shaoquette put it “obsolete scum” [definitely no rac!al connotations of course]. The idea that Singapore, a country literally created by rac!al inability to get along, might be rac!st is certainly not possible.

  16. Jesus that required a lot of scrolling past self indulgent tripe to say go Dees and go Hawks please

    Also come on Egon I have $5 on you but ok if Primoz wins because he dA boss

    • Good win tonight, as a Giants supporter I’m livid we re-signed Leon for another 2 years.

      My SIL is Slovenian so I’m Team Roglic.

    • Read last week that a good portion of the gas being fracked in the US is now being turned into plastic through new plastic manufacturers popping up everywhere. Clearly the cost of recycling/decomposition needs to be placed on the manufacturer. It is simply crazy what is happening at the moment, where plastic is being pumped out with no responsibility.
      People get upset with the plastic waste everywhere in the developing world but 30 years ago they had none. If the rubbish wasn’t compostable, they burnt it on the street. Now just plastic everywhere. Is that their fault or the plastic manufacturers who leave all responsibility aside the moment they pump their plastic out the gate?

      https://www.greenbiz.com/article/hidden-relationship-between-plastics-industry-and-fracking-us

      • Recently got a MacBook Pro delivered for work computer. Came with beautiful boxes and all wrapped in plastic. Presentation is important, but man what a waste.

      • Close to the full life-cycle cost of a product needs to be factored into it’s cost; if industry has trouble doing it, then government ought to iteratively price certain waste streams for them.

        As a engineer that does a lot of work in the waste space, I’m quite informed and passionate about this sort of approach.

        My 2c