Weekend Reading: 19-20 October 2019

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Unconventional Economist

Leith van Onselen is Chief Economist at the MB Fund and MB Super. Leith is an economist and has previously worked at the Australian Treasury, Victorian Treasury and Goldman Sachs.

Latest posts by Unconventional Economist (see all)

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      • Laughing at myself after writing an essay to my band captain about whether I should revert to single coil fenders or stick to my top-end yamahas with hummies.

        It is exciting as you can imagine!

          • https://www.moshpitbar.com.au/

            Bands have to be finished by 11. I don’t know if we’re last or in the middle, in the middle I think but Moshpit seems to think we’re headlining. I prefer middle.

            Working backwards (last band on at 10, middle band 9) it’s likely we’ll be on around 9.00pm, which is good – all the broken old shutins can get home early for a good sleepy bobos.

            I was going to say I am the larger gentleman with a black guitar, but looking around at practice the other day we are all larger gentlemen. If all goes to plan I’ll be on LHS looking at the stage. Band is Miss Jane. I’m known as harry, so that’s lucky. I’m growing a moustache, but it’s only been 5 days.

          • Mining BoganMEMBER

            Why isn’t portly in favour anymore? The westerns I used to read as a kid always had portly mayors and portly station masters etc. It’s a wonderful description of the larger gent.

            I’m guessing it’s just another victim of otherism and healthism.

            Edit: There were never portly gunslingers though. They were always slim-waisted and wide shouldered with piercing eyes. They may have all been [email protected] when you think about it.

          • MiBo – mate, you obviously read far too many Larry and Stretch westerns when you were supposed to be getting educated. The author for the Larry and Stretch series was “Marshall Grover” which was the non de plume of an Aussie bloke, Lenny Meares. Apparently he wrote about 700 westerns (and they gave the Nobel to White?!?!).

          • @triage… My pop must’ve had every Larry and Stretch western ever written, and I read them all as a kid. That probably established my lifeling preference for revolvers over semiautos. I try to love my semiautos, but revolvers just have soul.

          • I think that’s pedals, vs peddles.

            I’ve got 17, most of which I built myself. Overdrive, distortion, fuzz, reverb and delay. A man can never have too many guitars, pedals, or guns.

          • Back in the early 2000’s I had a young guy on my crew, curious musio sort, played everything. Played in more than a few bands and instruments, jazz to alt stuff all over Brisbane, named Cam.

            Went to his home after one work night out only to find his epic old school under the family post war house musio lab/playpen. Every nook and cranny was stuffed with old egg crates, foam, carpet scavenged whilst in high school. On the other hand all his gear was top shelf, new Imac for the day, studio speakers, drum kit, acoustic and electric guitars and the largest collection of peddles I’ve ever seen, old vacuum tubes and his prize possession a Russian peddle from the 70s I think.

            His passion was the bass though, used to play stuff with a little yellow rubber ducky.

            The only thing I can compare it to is a mates place in Calf, detached garage fully converted with shag carpet on everything, he would sometimes hole up in it for 3 days and not come out, fortes in recording in strange places aside, big drain pipe on cliffs at Rancho Palos Verdes. Even recorded a song for Dr. Demento [fish heads] which got air play done a la calypso.

        • Consider p90’s mate. I’ve got a Tokai Les Paul Goldtop with P90’s and the tone is fabulous. And a Tokai LP Junior with a single P90…it’s a rock machine!

          • I’ve actually got P90s in a couple. Awesome for the bridge (which I use for rhythm crunch) but a bit thick sounding for the neck. So I use singles (a split hummy at the moment) for a “clean” high gainy sound for lead.

            I’ve got a couple of strats with Kinman puppies, so they can take a fair bit of gain.

          • Played tonight in a small gig with Marshall TSL 120 with the Emperador Black LP with Tonerider Rebel P90s.

            Crunch and lead were awesome. If a bit buzzy.

    • Know IdeaMEMBER

      An inevitable consequence of enjoying all the rights while simultaneously shunning all the responsibilities.

    • Indeed.

      Pick ’em all up, dump ’em outside city limits. Make them go be poor, depressing and dead somewhere out of sight and out of mind.

      “Amazing” how the culture warriors never seem concerned about the normalisation of bad behaviour by the wealthy and powerful (unless, of course, they’re wealthy and powerful lefties).

          • The Traveling Wilbur

            Surprised the Uni didn’t just refuse to confer the doctorate (as it would have been sexist to give it to a male who identified as male).

          • Even in antiquity gender was a curious state of affairs, albeit most of the blow back these days is grounded in reversion against mainstream religions administering and ownership of the notion Natural [tm].

            Per se down thread the topic of Gabbard and some cultist views about sexual orientation which fails to reconcile Hindu views outside the narrow position taken in this case.

    • Its insane. Police no longer have the ability to enforce people to move on, therefore they’re sprawled over the footpath etc.

  1. What Andrew Yang Sees in the Economy that No Other Candidate Seems to Address – Bipartisan Press

    Yang’s rivals onstage offered proposals for job guarantees and strengthened labor unions. But if the jobs just aren’t there anymore, thanks to computers, it’s not clear what these guarantees and boosts to organized labor would do to help.

    Yep. And the unions are a load of garbage now.

    In the debate, Yang dismissed these alternate suggestions. “The fact is — and you know this in Ohio — if you rely upon the federal government to target its resources, you wind up with failed retraining programs and jobs that no one wants,”

    It is absolutely true that some job subsidies and retraining programs have failed, and the possibility of government programs failing at their intended purpose is one good argument for UBI

    https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/10/18/20919322/basic-income-freedom-dividend-andrew-yang-automation

    Not to mention the fact that an unlimited number of 45 year old foreigners with 20 years of experience are allowed to come over and take any job. A training program is 100% incompatible with open borders unless you ban foreigners from working in certain jobs.

  2. CHRISTCHURCH CENTRAL EAST … DEVELOPMENT FIASCO …

    Concern at sluggish sales of central Christchurch’s east frame homes … Liz McDonald … The Press

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/property/116622036/concern-at-sluggish-sales-of-central-christchurchs-east-frame-homes

    Paulson (Pavletich) comment on thread (in moderation) …

    As the Westpac Dwelling Preference Survey of some months ago found, Kiwis overwhelmingly prefer detached housing with a backyard.

    Obviously … the more affordable the better.

    The 3 monthly IPSOS Issues Monitors have consistently found housing affordability is THE major public policy issue by a country mile. The recent Newshub Reid Research and TVNZ Colmar Brunton Polls have sent a clear message to the current government that its survival is dependent on them solving the housing affordability issue.

    Residential development dreamers can expect to be severely punished going forward. Thank you The Press for bringing this important Treasury Report to light.
    .
    .
    Survey finds Kiwis’ backyard dream still alive and well (Westpac Bank) … Scoop New Zealand

    http://business.scoop.co.nz/2019/05/28/survey-finds-kiwis-backyard-dream-still-alive-and-well/

  3. Why We Need a Multidisciplinary Economics

    Economics hasn’t changed much in response to sociology, psychology, and other social sciences. Alan Kirman, professor emeritus of Economics at the University of Aix-Marseille III and at the Ecole des Hautes Etudes en Sciences Sociales, explains why that’s a problem.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYucuJJY7EQ

    The quote at 2:10 is instructive – “I think people spend some of their time taking non rational decisions and the rest of the time rationalizing them”.

  4. A letter from SAP to ABC.

    Dear Sir,

    LACK OF COVERAGE OF POPULATION ISSUES

    I am a regular listener to ABC radio programs and viewer of ABC TV. The most fundamental change to have taken place in Australia this century has been the shift to rapid population growth put in place by the Howard Government’s dramatic increase to our migration intake post 2004, a policy continued by successive governments.

    It is remarkable to me that given the effect of population growth on our wildlife and environment, traffic, housing affordability, our cities, planning, job security and many other issues, the issue receives so little coverage from the ABC.

    The issue is either not covered at all, or comments on migration are sought from right-wing populists of the One Nation variety who have little to say about the critical issues of sustainability or opportunity for younger Australians and are easily discredited.

    It is not that there no other voices capable of putting a considered position. Can I particularly recommend for your consideration Professor Ian Lowe, former President of the Australian Conservation Foundation and published author, on environmental questions, and Leith Van Onselen, “The Unconventional Economist” and Macroeconomics blogger, on issues of the economics of growth and population?

    The ABC is also in the habit of interviewing “demographers” who are diehard advocates of rapid population growth. There are academics and authors available such as Mark O’Connor in Canberra or Jane O’Sullivan in Brisbane who are extremely well-informed and who are not mouthpieces for property developers.

    I hope the ABC, which claims to be a voice for a diversity of opinions, can see its way clear to interview voices which are divergent from the Big Australia orthodoxy which has served Australia very poorly for the past 15 years, and continues to do so.

    Yours sincerely

    Clifford Hayes”

    The response from the ABC:

    “Dear Mr Hayes

    Thank you for your letter to the Managing Director. Mr Anderson has asked me to reply on her behalf and I apologise for the delay in doing so.

    Your comments have been noted, and advice from ABC News follows:

    While we appreciate that you feel this subject has been neglected, population growth and its impact on all aspects of our lives has been touched on across subjects, genres and platforms. There’s every reason to expect that this coverage will continue as population growth increasingly occupies the minds of politicians, academics, commentators and Australians of all walks of life. The ABC will endeavour to cover this subject from a diversity of perspectives and in a variety of ways, consistent with our editorial standards for impartiality.

    You may not be aware that ABC News Online provides a topics page for stories relating to Population and Demographic issues here:

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/topic/population-and-demographics

    You may also be interested in these recent examples of ABC reports on the subject of population growth:

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-27/federal-election-policy-explained-immigration-population-growth/10880530

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-23/tasmania-uneven-population-growth-could-leave-launceston-behind/11129896

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-12/budget-population-growth-estimates-too-high/11292846

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-31/fact-check-pauline-hanson-population-growth-migration/11360502

    Nonetheless, please be assured that the ABC appreciates audience feedback whether supportive or critical. Thank you again for taking the time to write and for your interest in the ABC.

    Yours sincerely

    J Mullaley

    Head, Audience Planning”

    • Dear J Mullaley

      When we see real coverage by the ABC of the 16 hour waits at Westmead and Nepean emergency for a hospital bed endured by our parents, or the 4 hours wait for ambulance transport endured by our friends, or the pushing and shoving by newly arrived migrants in queues at bus stops / train stations / picnic areas / post offices that we endure, or the death stares we receive from elderly migrant females for daring to walk in public anywhere west of Parramatta whilst being wh!te, then maybe we’ll consider your claims that “ABC [is endeavouring] to cover this subject from a diversity of perspectives and in a variety of ways “.

      In the mean time, fvck off

  5. Stewie GriffinMEMBER

    Great stuff from one of the best Democrat contenders (IMHO) Not that you will ever here about it in the SMH or any other MSM outlet:

    Great! Thank you @HillaryClinton. You, the queen of warmongers, embodiment of corruption, and personification of the rot that has sickened the Democratic Party for so long, have finally come out from behind the curtain. From the day I announced my candidacy, there has been a concerted campaign to destroy my reputation. We wondered who was behind it and why. Now we know — it was always you, through your proxies and powerful allies in the corporate media and war machine, afraid of the threat I pose.

    It’s now clear that this primary is between you and me. Don’t cowardly hide behind your proxies. Join the race directly.

    – Tulsi Gabbard

    https://mobile.twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status/1185289626409406464

    The above tweet was in reply to Hillary’s unhinged rant calling this US Army vet a Russian asset, because of Tulsi’s views on Syria and the middle east:

    https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/18/politics/hillary-clinton-tulsi-gabbard/index.html

    Trump will be relieved if Tulsi fails to make the nomination. The MSM are doing all they can to destroy and surpress her campaign, purely because she agrees with Trump that the US should not be the worlds policeman – and she says that as a Veteran and active reservist.

    If Trump wins he should offer her Bolton’s old role as National Security Adviser.

    • Stewie GriffinMEMBER

      Interesting to see – in the 10 minutes since I saw that tweet and posted the above comments the likes have gone up by 5 thousand, from 43k to 48k. IMHO the media are treating her exactly as they treated Bernie in the last Democrat race.

      After his heart scare Bernie is out, so being no genuine threat they are giving him more airplay/coverage. The clear Media darlings are Harris and Warren, while they are pushing Andrew Yang as the outsider.

      Tulsi, generates far more buzz every time she is given a glimpse of exposure and is by far the biggest threat to Trumps populist base and the values that support him – i.e. the Jacksonian America first principal, than any other Democrat candidate.

    • The rub is America became the world police post WWII and has a lot to do why it pushed reserve currency status [tribute] to protect and expand investors wealth globally, this also coincided with the export of social ideals via media, and the pond stocking of international agencies such as the IMF et al.

      Much of what many lament around here is the result of the cold war period – everything – was established around that agenda, ingrained environmental biases over a protracted period are not easily changed E.g. exceptionalism.

      Tulsi Gabbard at least breaks the mold on more than a few issues the DNC are nothing more than Corporatist water carriers for … albeit the religious side of things along with her dad is worrisome.

      • Stewie GriffinMEMBER

        “albeit the religious side of things along with her dad is worrisome”

        What – because Tulsi’s father pushes back against the globohomo? Good. LGBT people deserve respect and dignity, but it wasn’t them who built the world, it was families and values that support them. In many cases push back is required or at least the consequences of these social changes and ‘rights’ considered.

        The reason unequal pay and unequal advancement existed was less about discrimination and more about ensuring that families and their bread winners earned an income high enough for society to perpetuate itself. That was why society discriminated – to protect itself.

        This is another dimension of the two income trap and greater female participation in the workforce – sure it may benefit the individual, but it works against societies interests. The rights are important, but the consequence in terms of how resources and income is distributed in society needs to be considered.

        Now families have to compete in a Corporate space, where they are out competed in terms of the flexibility that comes with being carefreely able to change jobs and location, being always on call as opposed to alternative commitments, spending wages on new suits and shiny shoes instead of kids education, going out to socialise and network instead of paying the mortgage and groceries.

        The ‘moral sin’ against society that homosexuality really represents, ISN’T about the act, but about the subtle manner in which the changes in social values results in changes in how society rewards the behaviours within itself through allocating and distributing resources.

        • So I take it that your a Gary North sort Stewie, Btw by what right do you push that view on others and then still expect so called freedoms and liberties.

          • Stewie GriffinMEMBER

            Btw by what right do you push that view on others and then still expect so called freedoms and liberties

            Push what view? Express an opinion? My you are quite the libertarian aren’t you. Just accept it or reject it .

            WTF are you on about with Gary North comparisons?!?! FFS I said nothing about banning, or condemning or capital punishment for pooh-poking. I was opining on the inadvertant negative social outcome that can result through cultural change, and how it may favour the interests of “self” over “society”… you’re a Boomer, you should understand all about self interest. I merely pointed out the potential societal consequence and suggested it be acknowledged or explored as an idea.

            Rather than pretending these phenomena and consequence don’t exist, by acknowledging that these social changes can also result in negative consequences, such as the ‘two income trap’, or changes in that attributes of who is valued as an employee and how it may inadvertently disadvantage families, means that policies can be formulated to address them.

          • I’m not a boomer [tm] because I don’t fit into some convenient pigeonhole concocted out of some market based framework which reduces both humans and citizens to consumers with a side of public choice theory Stewie.

            I think you will find years of comments here at MB, NC, and various economic platforms, contra to your suggestion about being a libertarian, quite the opposite actually is true. Been a firm anti libertarian and anti Austrian [AET] for decades. Begs the question about your cognitive state of mind, memory capacity – recall, after everything is filtered through your obvious bias filters. Case in point – your pin the tail of everything that ills society can be attributed to Cultural Marxism, considering Neoliberalisms core axioms are based on AET, Chicago School [waves at Milton] and neoclassical preferences I find that a bad case of white washing history.

            BTW I don’t frame Economics as based on the preferences for specific forms of family formation, especially when informed by esoteric opinions. I submitted a INET link above which should assist you in understanding that prospective.

          • Reading comprehension an issue for you kodiak?

            Its a made up marketing term, like with the ideological cudgel of Cultural Marxism – it is both used out of its original context, with its original meaning and a back handed slur to promote emotional feelings. The emotive bit is just a tool to assist in crafting a narrative by means of suspension of disbelief E.g. ev’bal forces screwing with the creators grand plan, fleshed out with proclamations about fixing it all if you join the side of light.

        • Right. So in summary:
          a) society must discriminate against women to incentivise them to have enough babies
          b) only heteros want long-term, stable, family relationships
          c) the tiny percentage of society that aren’t hetero are destroying the working lives of the rest because (b) makes them more attractive workers
          d) consequently homosexuality represents a “moral sin against society”.

          • The sins of the few are distributed to the faithful for not administering the laws accordingly, obey is not suggestive.

          • Stewie GriffinMEMBER

            Professor Smithy and Skippy, it is like the ultimate two headed hose beast. One spews self righteous woke outrage and the other an impenetrable wall of incomprehensible BS. God help the world if you ever have a love child.

            Enough with  your straw men professor – yes, some women need incentivisation to have children, just like some men require incentivisation to become fathers instead of dwelling in their parents cellars.

            There are plenty of LBGTs who become parents – I have no issue with that. They are making individual sacrifices towards self interest and involving themselves with perpetuating society, much preferable than importing replacements. In fact I support them 1000% times over some lame progressive couple who want to avoid having kids ‘to save the environment’:
            https://qz.com/1590642/these-millennials-are-going-on-birth-strike-due-to-climate-change/

            Build as many straw men as you like, I was merely observing that the changes in social values in terms of tolerating and rewarding behaviours, can have un-intentended and negative flow on effects, like changes in the differential value of hetrosexual corporate managers over homesexual corporate managers, or the creation of the two income trap.

            Greater minds than mine can’t address or formulate solutions to a problem, if moralising fw’s pretend that no issues exist and that every individual freedom isn’t accompanied by a social cost.

          • Stewie …

            Everything you present is the ultimate strawman, starting off with a predisposed proposition plucked from the vacuum and wrapped in the cloak of Natural [tm]. You might not be aware that in the late 50’s a study was funded by Conservatives in the U.S. to buttress their views on sexuality by correlation with mammals in the wild. When the results were contra that expectation they buried it, so much for intellectual or academic rigor I guess. Might have something to do with the mess mainstream economics has become E.g. monetarism – every social ill can be attributed to quantity or quality of money.

            This is replicated by the last go the fundies had at court over evolution, even the Conservative judge ruled against them for being cute with evidence. This is highlighted by your vulgar use of the term Phd or Prof to back hand others for not subscribing to your concept of authority and how its derived. Now if you want we can have a debate on the topic in your preferred framework and get right down to the brass tacks in the written word from a
            theological perspective.

            As always I prefer Thomas Goodwin’s concise summary for its honesty, as well, those of faith that are more ethical and rigorous in their exploration of anthropology. Hows that NABRE in your opinion – ?????

          • Your proclamation about ignorance, self inflicted or otherwise, is not a substantiated argument stewie, nor is your firm belief in what your say compelling. Your mangling of academic terms is instructive as is the broad brushing of everything not pro your world view into some absurd framework. Yet you can’t even seem to understand how much of mainstream economics and neoliberalism core axioms are based on your – belief – system, contra to all the evidence against it. So the question begs why do some put irretrievable stakes in the ground and can only double down when challenged, regardless of the consequences.

          • Stewie GriffinMEMBER

            Can you please take that one back to the kitchen – I didn’t order a word salad to go.

          • One spews self righteous woke outrage and the other an impenetrable wall of incomprehensible BS.

            LOL.

            You are projecting, as usual. You are the only one here who’s outraged.

            My points weren’t straw men (and not only because you agreed with at least one of them).

            But let’s get this straight.

            You think a couple of percent of the workforce are – because they’re the subset homosexuals not interested in settling down with families and thus happy to be very flexible with work arrangements – a significant cause of wage depression ?

            The notion is absurd. They’re insignificant even just in the demographic of similarly unattached and non-committal heterosexuals, let alone the whole workforce (of a which a non-trivial percentage will also be flexible and career-focused). Further, they’ve always existed in that capacity, and thus their impact over the long run is constant (ie: irrelevant).

            The only real change in the last half century to support your assertion would be the rise of the intensely career-focused woman. But such women are, similar to homosexuals, only a very small percentage of the workforce and thus their direct impact is small to nothing.

            Build as many straw men as you like, I was merely observing that the changes in social values in terms of tolerating and rewarding behaviours, can have un-intentended and negative flow on effects, like changes in the differential value of hetrosexual corporate managers over homesexual corporate managers, or the creation of the two income trap.

            LOL. You’re “observing” a thin (albeit wordy) veneer of (poor) reasoning to justify ragging on poofs and feminists.

            Firstly, the societal change of the last few decades does not “reward” being homosexual, it simply punishes it less. These days, generally the most they have to worry about in the western world is a significant chunk of conservatives calling them deviants and child abusers. Rather than, say, being incarcerated or killed.

            Secondly, the behaviour of homosexuals you are complaining about (ie: work flexibility, frivolous consumption, intense career focus) will not have changed due to homosexuality becoming socially acceptable (because ultimately it’s not that hard to fake being straight). However, the behaviour of the homosexuals you aren’t complaining about (the ones who want to have families) most assuredly will have changed, since now they can do exactly that. So the actual outcome of greater acceptance homosexuality – and particularly acceptance of homosexuals in family situations – if anything will be working in the exact opposite direction to your assertion.

            Thirdly, the two income trap is a result of all the other economic and political changes that have resulted in less reliable employment, decades of suppressed wages, a gigantic debt bubble, and the massive shift of benefit away from labor and over to capital. If the greater acceptance of homosexuality played any part at all, it would be a rounding error. The greater ability of women to participate in the workforce should result in a substantial lift in real family incomes. Instead, it simply put more money into the hands of the wealthy and powerful. The proper response to this is to restrain and punish the wealthy and powerful so the real uplift in living standards can occur, not tell women they need to get back into the kitchen and hope the wealthy and powerful will reciprocate with a return to the previous status quo (hint: they won’t).

            Greater minds than mine can’t address or formulate solutions to a problem, if moralising fw’s pretend that no issues exist and that every individual freedom isn’t accompanied by a social cost.

            It is hilarious you complain about other people creating straw men, then write something as stupid as that.

          • Stewie GriffinMEMBER

            As usual ‘Professor’ you read what you want to read, not what I actually wrote.

            I never ‘hated’ on homosexuals, I said I supported such LBGT couples who were involved in raising kids and participating in society:

            There are plenty of LBGTs who become parents – I have no issue with that. They are making individual sacrifices towards self interest and involving themselves with perpetuating society, much preferable than importing replacements. In fact I support them 1000% times over some lame progressive couple who want to avoid having kids ‘to save the environment’

            I did and do criticise the globohomo – the affirmation of a hedonistic carefree lifestyle and focus on the individual self fulfillment, as a worthy and justifiable pursuit. But then my scorn is equally placed against lame hetrosexual progressive couples who do the same thing and pretend they’re helping the environment.

            My ‘crime’ in your eyes was putting forward reasonable hypothesis or proposition for why societies ‘hated’ on homosexuals or why the churchs condemn it, other than an irrational ‘hatred’ or just ‘because’ which seems to be your two favorite explanations for everything.

            Is it that an unreasonable suggestion when you consider that for much of history most populations were subsistence level? If you weren’t all working for survival and the perpetuation of society, then that was an issue. It is a reasonable supposition.

            For instance homosexuals didn’t exist prior to the term being invented in the 18th century – there were just a collection of guys who liked to have sex with each other to varying degrees.

            The point was, for the most part they still fully PARTICIPATED in society – one of the biggest Queers of them all, Oscar Wilde, still managed to have two sons. I wonder how many homosexuals today still miss out on being a parent due to their own identity issues that preclude them considering the role?

            As to the rest of you’re scree – tldr I don’t need lessons from a tedious bed wetter like yourself.

          • I never ‘hated’ on homosexuals […]

            Never said you did…

            Is it that an unreasonable suggestion when you consider that for much of history most populations were subsistence level? If you weren’t all working for survival and the perpetuation of society, then that was an issue. It is a reasonable supposition.

            No, in that context it’s an even sillier idea. For most of human history – but especially in subsistence type scenarios – the proportion of people able to do any of the stuff you’re complaining about was vanishingly small – zero from any practical perspective – because that’s what subsistence means. There would have been a somewhat larger percentage during more recent history (say, the last few thousand years, maybe six thousand if you want to be generous), but it’s really only since the industrial revolution and creation of the middle classes in the last few hundred that “a hedonistic carefree lifestyle and focus on the individual self fulfillment” were things any but the highest echelons of society could even think about, let alone actually do.

            So, the suggestion that in ancient history, extra layers of shame and punishment were laid on top of being, essentially, the property of the chief/king/lord/whatever to ‘disincentivise’ a statistically irrelevant proportion of people from maybe not having children because that would somehow put all of society at risk, doesn’t even pass the laugh test. Heck, I’d be willing to bet a higher percentage of the population is infertile, than homosexual (itself probably used as a common excuse in the past, I imagine).

            A+ for mental gymnastics and reverse reasoning, though. Also for a new use of “globohomo” I haven’t run into before.

            For instance homosexuals didn’t exist prior to the term being invented in the 18th century – there were just a collection of guys who liked to have sex with each other to varying degrees.

            Er, and…? This is like saying “gravity didn’t exist before Newton, things just fell down AND EVERYONE WAS HAPPY WITH THAT“.

            I wonder how many homosexuals today still miss out on being a parent due to their own identity issues that preclude them considering the role?

            Good grief.

            Yes. I’m sure it’s because of their “identity issues” and not because a sizeable percentage of society publicly and proudly call them perverts and child abusers, and work pretty hard to prevent them from even having access to children, let alone raising them. And that’s before getting into all the conservative hysterics around same sex marriage.

            As to the rest of you’re scree – tldr I don’t need lessons from a tedious bed wetter like yourself.

            😀

          • drsmithy …

            How is it everyone without the power of capital is at fault, considering capital funded mainstream economics, even sorted a booby prize, maybe he should read:

            The Nobel Factor by Avner Offer and Gabriel Söderbergh. It supplies a systematic history of the misnamed “Nobel Prize,” explains the purpose of its creation, and it provides some ideas of just how unscientific economics really is.

            How about – everything – is the result of capitals machinations.

          • ErmingtonPlumbing

            All this obsessive embrace of intersectional identity politics is a product of the individualist narrative within Neoliberalism in my view.
            It’s the opposite to the kind of Solidarity required to produce a “New” kind of Narrative.
            I was happy with the social democratic one but apparently that’s to old fashioned

            https://youtu.be/ARiaiyHrijw

          • I’ll tell you something that doesn’t engender Solidarity: telling people who have been on the wrong side of racism, sexism, or various other forms of bigotry that it’s not a problem or doesn’t exist.

          • Stewie GriffinMEMBER

            Professor bed wetter has hysterics anytime someone attempts to suggest that there may be some innate reasons as to why certain population groups don’t succeed, or why certain behaviours have been frowned upon within society, other than – it is all a social construct designed to persecute people.

            Any suggestion that some of the differences in life outcomes might be from biology, or might be as a result of society acting in its best interest instead of the individual, then the ‘Professor’ wets the bed and we get his long discombobulated scree’s where he accuses every man and his dog of being a Nazi eugenicists or sympathizer.

            Identity and social construct is all he has. Pointing out that focusing on identity is divisive and in itself can become self fulfilling or limiting in terms of individuals potential, makes his head explode every time and is met with rabid frothing of the mouth and speaking in tongues.

            Smiturds allegiance to dogma would be endearing to the 15th century Catholic church, as they persecuted Galileo or any other inquiring mind.

          • “Professor bed wetter has hysterics anytime someone attempts to suggest that there may be some innate reasons as to why certain population groups don’t succeed, or why certain behaviours have been frowned upon within society, other than – it is all a social construct designed to persecute people.”

            The proof is incumbent on you stewie of which so far you have not supplied any means to evaluate your stringent suggestion. Please supply the requisite societies that support your claims and show the means of how you arrive at what metrics denote success. Furthermore I fail to see how any of your suggestions has anything to do with the results of mainstream economics during the neoliberal period, considering the issues you have grievances about did not become talking point until recently. So what was causing all the dramas before gender or idpol was even a distraction from a socioeconomic debate.

            I mean what does it have to do with the IS-LM, Says Law [tm], corporatism or a cornucopia of other wonky economentrics or ideological political agendas over the last 50ish years. Are you suggesting all the anti social corruption and looting is grounded in or carried on by these wicked people. This is absurd considering the forefathers of neoliberalism like Hayek, Friedman, Rubin, Samuelson, Sargent, and the whole Chicago school paradigm about making everyone an individual [tm] in a Market and numbers are the metric that determine success or failure in life.

            Let see if you can remember the 5 key points of neoliberalism I’ve posted more than a few times over the years of which all are grounded on the “individual” taking all responsibility for anything that happens in their life in a market based paradigm, regardless of sexual orientation or ideological preferences. Then remind me why that regardless of which of the two dominate political parties you get the same mainstream economic outcomes and then yet its got anything to do with sexual orientation or idpol except being a distraction.

            On the latter I find your suggestion a form of pettifoggery which distracts from the core issues which are driving events. Now if you take exception to the market taking notice of any groups purchasing power and how that relates to their profit – all I can say is epic own goal mate. The best bit is as drsmithy points out – those you lay all ills on are a rounding error, that media and some ideological groups make hay off it is because it ***sells*** in the market place.

          • Stewie GriffinMEMBER

            Speaking of speaking in tongues, right on queue along comes Skippy.

            The proof is incumbent on you stewie of which so far you have not supplied any means to evaluate your stringent suggestion

            You bumbling idiot – the expression of ideas and opinions, wild and unfounded, is how human knowledge advances.

            The process of creative thought by definition requires new connections to be made or orthodoxies like yours and the Professors to be challenged. It is not incumbent upon myself to go on a scavenger hunt to provide you with the evidence for my speculations (there is plenty that exists – and as great as it is, it will be never enough for a zealot such as yourself).

            I’m merely putting forward hypothesise for the unequal outcome in life between different individuals that may rest on rational reasons, explainable other than irrational emotive“hatred” or social constructs designed to oppress for no other reason than “because”.

            Tension and fighting within a society is expensive – it would be far better and more efficient if were were all happy little Vegemites. Prejudices and discrimination exist for a purpose, my crime is suggesting that there may be a rational reason behind it other than simple oppression and hierarchies.

            That is the sum of my blasphemies.

          • Professor bed wetter has hysterics anytime someone attempts to suggest that there may be some innate reasons as to why certain population groups don’t succeed, or why certain behaviours have been frowned upon within society, other than – it is all a social construct designed to persecute people.

            Another A+ for projection.

            Pointing out that focusing on identity is divisive […]

            It’s only divisive if people choose to make it divisive.

            Which, of course, you do, because creating and promoting division is fundamental to your exclusionary ideas.

            You bumbling idiot – the expression of ideas and opinions, wild and unfounded, is how human knowledge advances.

            That’s some weapons-grade irony, right there.

            It is not incumbent upon myself to go on a scavenger hunt to provide you with the evidence for my speculations […]

            Yeah, actually, it is. If you want to be taken seriously, anyway.

            I’m merely putting forward hypothesise for the unequal outcome in life between different individuals that may rest on rational reasons, explainable other than irrational emotive“hatred” or social constructs designed to oppress for no other reason than “because”.

            And we are merely explaining why your hypothesise matches neither reason nor evidence.

          • Stewie GriffinMEMBER

            ‘Original thought’ – something you’ll never be accused of Professor.

            What you denigrate as ‘mental gymnastics’ is simply the ability to look beyond the cell of dogma that you’re imprisoned in.

            It is a compliment that you will never know.

          • Stewie GriffinMEMBER

            And we are merely explaining why your hypothesise matches neither reason nor evidence

            ROFLMGDAO – What evidence you sad bed wetter? You are refuting my opinion and speculation with your own. There is no truth in your own narrow explanation, only dogma.

            I don’t deny the existence of social constructs, but I don’t deny the existence of biology either. I require more of an explanation for why oppression takes place other than simply ‘hatred’. Once again:

            Any suggestion that some of the differences in life outcomes might be from biology, or might be as a result of society acting in its best interest instead of the individual, then the ‘Professor’ wets the bed and we get his long discombobulated scree’s where he accuses every man and his dog of being a Nazi eugenicists or sympathizer.

            Identity and social construct is all he has.

            Big “J” type personalities like your own always get stuck in the black or the white, grey is something you will never understand.

          • Stewie …

            Your personal views on what constitutes theory and how knowledge is advanced is so mangled one does not even know where to begin with. Firstly you might be ignorant about how neoliberalism is the result of the deductive methodology you ascribe too, not to mention it does not factor in social values because of it, lest you for get TINA [there is no society]. So again where is all this agency you subscribe to gender or idpol in concocting and then advancing an agenda that’s been around long before it was a topic or radically altered the relationship between the state and its citizens in lieu of a purist pro business agenda.

            Do you realize you sound like these guys ….

            “So Herbert Nelson contracted out the PR services of the Foundation for Economic Education to concoct propaganda designed to shore up the National Real Estate lobby’s legislative drive — and the propagandists who took on the job were Milton Friedman and his U Chicago cohort, George Stigler.

            To understand the sort of person Herbert Nelson was, here is a letter he wrote in 1949 that Congressional investigators discovered and recorded:

            “I do not believe in democracy. I think it stinks. I don’t think anybody except direct taxpayers should be allowed to vote. I don’t believe women should be allowed to vote at all. Ever since they started, our public affairs have been in a worse mess than ever.”

            It’s an old libertarian mantra, libertarianism versus democracy, libertarianism versus women’s suffrage; a position most recently repeated by billionaire libertarian Peter Thiel —Ron Paul’s main campaign funder.”

            https://www.nsfwcorp.com/dispatch/milton-friedman/

          • Are you conflating the results of royal science that is testable and that which is plucked from the vacuum of deductive methodology and applied to that which lives stewie.

          • Stewie GriffinMEMBER

            You’re the one with an IQ of 124 – you tell me what I meant to say.
            (you will anyway)

          • ‘Original thought’ – something you’ll never be accused of Professor.

            😀

            Says the bloke carrying on the work of head measurers and caste society.

            What evidence you sad bed wetter?

            Homosexuals are a tiny minority of the workforce. They cannot have the level of influence you ascribe to them.
            You are suggesting cultural norms against homosexuality were established millennia ago to ensure the perpetuation of society, yet also claiming that they didn’t exist as a group until the 18th century.

            I require more of an explanation for why oppression takes place other than simply ‘hatred’.

            The only person who has used the word ‘hatred’ in this discussion is you.

            Big “J” type personalities like your own always get stuck in the black or the white, grey is something you will never understand.

            LOL.

            Wow. Just… WOW. The biological determinist is accusing other people of having a black and white worldview.

            It is a struggle to find a single viewpoint you ascribe to me, that I have ever actually expressed, or indeed even alluded to. It’s all just made up so you can yell at clouds.

          • Stewie GriffinMEMBER

            FMD you are an unimaginative dead shyt.

            Homosexuals are estimated to be between 5 – 10% of the male population, as idenfitying. My suggestion is that in the modern corporate office, the marginal value proposition of employing a homo guy vs a hetro guy tips towards homosexual.

            They don’t need to dominate the workforce, they simply need to be marginally more attractive at securing higher paying jobs.

            This impacts society at the margins you twat. That is the sum of my argument.

            The biological determinist is accusing other people of having a black and white worldview.

            Moron – Biology plays a part. That is all that I’ve ever said and maintained In respect of IQ it is commonly believed to explain about 60%…. although in the case of the slime mould that you’re descended from it problem explains damn near all of it.

            I’ve never said that it is 100% responsible (except in your case, although being dropped on your head at birth could also be a valid explanation).

            FMD you are obtuse.

          • Stewie GriffinMEMBER

            Any suggestion that some of the differences in life outcomes might be from biology, or might be as a result of society acting in

            Did you see that word, let me make it bigger for you:

            Any suggestion that SOME of the differences in life outcomes might be from biology, or might be as a result of society acting in its best interest instead of the individual, then the ‘Professor’ wets the bed and we get his long discombobulated scree’s where he accuses every man and his dog of being a Nazi eugenicists or sympathizer.

            Identity and social construct is all he has.

            You do know that “some” doesn’t mean “all” don’t you?

    • I’ve been Tulsi supporter from day one. But she is against all MSM and establishment. She is facing more obstacles than Trump faced as the establishment knows this time will be different. If elected the establishment will have to deal with someone who’s got brains.

      • …If elected the establishment will have to deal with someone who’s got brains.

        when the system is shaped to fertilise and water the encumbrance on the way up the ladder, it is nourished for the very purpose to de-fang the subjects.
        Kinda like Newtonian fluid swim, the more against prevailing current the movement is – the stiffer it gets. Brains can only bring frustration… or can get one’s motorcade path down Dealey Plaza.
        With Trump, his vacuous broad intelligence quotient made him unpredictable and his political encumbrance was minimal. Brains make one’s actions somewhat predictable. The System is not likely to make the same mistake twice.

    • Everyone knows that Ross Perot was a Russian asset.

      Split the vote in 1992 so that Russian asset Bill could be installed as President.

      Those Russians are masterful how they ‘pretended’ to lose the Cold War at the point of victory.

      Fooled everyone!

      Now they are using Russian assets in the Greens Party and Russian asset Dem nominees to split the vote to leave the way clear for the return of Russian asset Hillary to be defeated a second time by Russian asset Trump.

      Notice how silent Russian asset Obama has been lately? Clearing the way for his Kenyan / Indonesian campaigns for Presidency.

      • interested partyMEMBER

        “Notice how silent Russian asset Obama has been lately? Clearing the way for his Kenyan / Indonesian campaigns for Presidency.”

        Gold star, my friend. However, may I suggest that the Russian asset Obama is actually a muslim brotherhood asset? Can he be both? Is he either? Should we ask Hillary? Maybe Tulsi knows?
        Oh Oh pick me pick me………how about we ask the marsupial?

    • Tulsi is awesome. I don’t agree with her on everything but I’d love to see her having a crack at the Presidency. Neo-cons and the military industrial complex would never allow such an outcome so she has basically no hope. And now we see who has been doing their dirty work. The Clintons are corrupt beyond measure.

      • interested partyMEMBER

        “The Clintons are corrupt beyond measure”
        Would you be surprised if they answer to layers above?

  6. Goddamn. This is f’ed up.

    “They took 200 inmates outside, men and women, and told one of the women to confess her sins. She stood before us and declared that she had been a bad person, but now that she had learned Chinese she had become a better person. When she was done speaking, the policemen ordered her to disrobe and simply raped her one after the other, in front of everyone. While they were raping her they checked to see how we were reacting. People who turned their head or closed their eyes, and those who looked angry or shocked, were taken away and we never saw them again. It was awful. I will never forget the feeling of helplessness, of not being able to help her. After that happened, it was hard for me to sleep at night.”

    https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-a-million-people-are-jailed-at-china-s-gulags-i-escaped-here-s-what-goes-on-inside-1.7994216

    Accessible via incognito mode. Gaddamn rough.

    • agree. also, many similar episodes occurred and still occurring around the world but msm chooses to ignore as those countries are friendly to us. and that is why I lost faith. Just to add, even though I am pro Palestinian I do find Haaretz fairly decent paper to read.

      • Just to add, even though I am pro Palestinian I do find Haaretz fairly decent paper to read.

        That’s interesting – when Haaretz was free years ago I used to read it and thought it often dumped on the Israeli establishment big time, especially during the Gaza war. I had a few jewish friends who would spit venom at the mention of it because it was so pro Palestinian? I would have thought you would have absolutely loved it? Maybe it has changed tone, or I am dementing faster than I am prepared to admit to myself …

      • reusachtigeMEMBER

        Just like what we did to the joos before and during WW2. “not our problem”. Of course, this is the right stance when mega profits can be made from the perpetrators. Profits are ALWAYS the most important thing and thankfully most Aussies, the good ones, would agree.

      • The Traveling Wilbur

        I would have thought it would have been hard to get hold of a copy of that these days after all the Labor and westbank-Palestine political related shenanigans over the last few years that have happened here.

        I.e. essentially banned, along with Labor MPs having photos taken while visiting certain constituents. And while drinking Mountain Dew.

    • Starting to think there is a large anti-Chinese propaganda component to all this recent reporting

      Not that Chinese govt isn’t despicable, but exactly the same thing is happening in Catalonia right now Yet there is absolutely no reporting on it and no outcry

      The EU could do something about it since Spain is their vassal, but they’ve only supported the harsh actions of the Spanish government on Catalan separatists

      • reusachtigeMEMBER

        LOLOLOL yeah like I was partying in Barcelona a few months back and yeah the locals were p1ssed off about their failed independence thingy with leaders locked up but I missed the bit where hundreds of birds were raped in front of everyone. Maybe I was just too busy having a good time. Yeah that’s why I missed it.

      • hence my comment above. Chinese Gov is horrible but god is US gov better? I guess millions of Arab civilians killed in mindless wars don’t count when narrative does not suit.

        • interested partyMEMBER

          “is US gov better?”
          The corollary to that …..is the USA the same now as it was back then?

        • Yeah, but at least they weren’t raped… I mean, sure they’re dead, but not raped, that’s a marked improvement, no?

      • “… but they’ve only supported the harsh actions of the Spanish government on Catalan separatists…”

        Of course they have – the very future of the EU and all those cozy, lucrative jobs hinges on the EU not disintegrating. There are separatist movements everywhere and there’s Brexit ..

      • “exactly the same thing is happening in Catalonia right now” Oranges, organs, yeah pretty close.

      • reusachtigeMEMBER

        You know what, even if it is propaganda it’s friggin awesome. The powers that be are using China’s own perceived strength against them. China believes that by controlling the narrative it is powerful. The weakness that may be getting exploited is that due to this control no one can really verify the story therefore these stories can now grow in strength to hopefully destroy them. It’s a friggin awesome play if this is the case. Or, the Chinamen government really is evil.

        By the way, the same thing was said about the stories that were coming out about the joos in Nazi Germany. History Rhymings…

          • ‘I’ve seen things you people wouldn’t believe…’ Having been all my young years on the other side of the iron curtain, these games are second nature to me. You end up applying a blanket ‘Pravda’ filter to just about everything you hear.

  7. With world CBs printing QE together now and also lowering teh rates – so much stimulation for no apparent reason, looks like the world crash could possibly be postponed again for a long while. I don’t see anything that can bring this sh$$tshow down who knows how long extend and pretend can go on. I put my super into mostly cash this year but maybe the right move is back into the circus. I need to move house too, I’m nervous about selling and buying in this mess. Nothing is stable or predictable at the moment, CBs are making it up as they go and it doesn’t seem like they know how to finish the story and start a new book.

    • Not sure if cash is as safe as it seems in QE environment
      In overly simplified perception, I take QE as Zimbabwe hyper inflation hidden from the masses. As if printing the money but not releasing it to the wild.
      So what happens to fiat when all that “liquidity” escapes?

        • ‘This is a deep and radical change to the nature of monetary policy, if you ask me. It looks like central banks have altered their strategy. From being ‘data dependent’ to a pre-emptive strike doctrine.’

          Brilliant, brilliant point. Not to mention trigger happy on the pre-emptive strikes as long as it’s an easing bias. Political interference and populism means we will never see this strategy when tightening is required. We’ll look through high inflation for years and then tentatively raise.

    • wolf street had great article on them cvnts explaining how they spent all the money on share buybacks instead of paying off debt and on R&D. Apparently all their new planes a based on old body design in order to save money. And how to do you compete against competition? You get your Gov to impose tariffs and sanctions against other countries.

    • Wow, how the once mighty have fallen.
      I never worked for Boeing but josh I had enormous respect for their Engineers.
      Boeing set the standards for for high reliability systems design, no that’s wrong Boeing literally wrote the standard.
      Boeing safety engineers were second to none
      Boeing understood Real time computing, it’s software was as close to perfect as one could be, it’s firmware/RTOS was tested like no other systems in the industry.
      These guys truly understood the problem and delivered incredible quality in what was / is a very high risk environment.
      In a flight control system lots of things can and will go wrong but the plane needs to stay in the air.
      It’s not an easy problem but traditionally Boeing was up to the task.
      Oh how the mighty have fallen!

        • Well that’s my point, the Boeing culture that I heard about is clearly dead’n’buried
          There’s absolutely noway the the Boeing Engineers that I knew back in the 1990’s / early 2000’s would have accepted a product shipping that had known defects which a respected test pilot called “Egregious” it just wouldn’t have happened. And without their (the Engineers) signatures there was nothing that the Management could have done to get the product passed by the FAA.
          I kinda wonder how much of this apparent organizational misalignment (Engineers/ production / Pilots not reading form the same script as senior Management) is the result of Boeing having moved its Corporate headquarters to Chicago while production / engineering remains in Washington state.
          I wonder what the body language of the 737Max development Engineers said about the project direction and chances of success.
          From what I’ve read this project was very much a Management decision with Engineers trying to make it fly
          From my experience most great products start life as the brain child of a few Engineers and eventually get Management approval. Very few great products start their life on some management spread sheet (wow look how much money we can make if…)
          I know what I’m saying seems petty But if the quality of the design team that accepts the product development challenge is second rate, than so is the final product.

          • Ronin8317MEMBER

            In hindsight, if Boeing’s sale pitch went from ‘no sim time needed’ to ‘we will rebate sim time’, none of this will happen. The requirement that the switch to NG to MAX require no extra simulators training is the heart of the issue. MCAS is not in NG, it is needed on the MAX, but due to the ‘no extra sim training’ requirement it cannot be listed in the tech documentation, nor can its activation be signalled to the pilot, nor can there be a way to manually disable it. The prmoise of no extra training is merely worth 1 million dollars per plane. In the scheme of things it is the worse penny-wise but pound poor decision ever made.

            The other thing I cannot understand is why they removed the ability to disable autotrim but retain electric trimming. That can be done on the NG : one switch for disabling computer trimming, one for disabling electric motor assistance in trim. In the MAX, there are still two switches (to make it the same as NG so no sim training is needed) but both switches acts the same in kiiling electric motor trim.

            Lastly, even though the accident report is not out, I think it will find that despite what Boeing claims, MCAS does indeed override user trim, so if it manages to push the trim far enough from neutral you are pretty much dead. I cannot imagine the lion Air pilots on the doomed flight would not be pushing the thumb trim switch on the yoke as if their life depended on it (it does).Overriding user input of trim is NOT a certification requirement, so once again it cones down to ‘no sim training required’ : if user input trim can override MCAS, then it has to be documented as it will be an exception during certification.

            The lawsuit from the victim will be massive.

          • I understood the highest contributing cause was not in MCAS overriding the human but rather that it relied on data from only one AoA sensor AND that whole system was reduced from standard 3 sensors to only 2. Sensor redundancy calls for 3 units readout for max redundancy gains to number of sensors and this is apparently industry standard. AoA and pitot are probably the 2 most important but regularly failing sensors and making MCAS listen to only one of 2 or 3.. that had to be corporate risk management decision (facing huge decline in sales due to no real competition to A320neo)

            Just my 2bobs worth opinion…

          • Thanks guys, I don’t have any insider info on this issue but if you asked me based on the presentation of the problem I’d say it’s something really stupid like a stack underflow/overflow is)sue which feeds bogus data into the control algorithm. It might be triggered by the single AoA but that’s not (in my opinion ) likely the real problem it seems more likely to me that the issues raised by a single out of range AoA sensor somehow cause the cause the control algorithm to lose it’s mind.
            I hope that the issue gets properly resolved because Engineering knowledge is only advanced when we admit our mistakes and develop system that prevent that mistake from being made again.
            Given the money that is involved I suspect the real technical root cause for this MCAS failure will never be revealed.

          • Now if you apply the same MBA methodology to health care – ????? – then some seem to forget the lessons from Challenger ….

  8. Something for walking the dog or cutting the grass.

    https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/new-books-in-economics/id425187524?i=1000449619180

    “…I spoke with James C. W. Ahiakpor, he is Professor Emeritus, Department of Economics, at California State University, East Bay, USA. We discussed his new book Macroeconomics without the Errors of Keynes: The Quantity Theory of Money, Saving, and Policy (Routledge, 2019) A provocative title for a very original book that is a critique not only of Keynes but also of some of his followers and his scholarly opponents. This is a sophisticated book and an erudite account and analysis of crucial debates in economics over the past 100 years.

    I asked what is the origin of the book and why he wrote a book ‘against’ J.M. Keynes. I also asked to locate Keynes and his relationship with classical economists. We then discussed why macroeconomics needs to be restored to its classical roots and what are the distortions that he attributes to Keynes. Finally we spoke about the implications of his book for contemporary economic and monetary policy debates after the great recession.

    Professor Ahiakpor argues that modern macroeconomics is in a stalemate, with seven schools of thought attempting to explain the workings of a monetary economy and to derive policies that promote economic growth with price-level stability. He attributes some of those problems to the errors of Keynes and to the reception of his work.

    The crucial errors made by Keynes are due to his reading of classical macroeconomics, in particular the classical Quantity Theory and the meaning of saving.

    In light of this, we discussed with James Ahiakpor how to solve those misunderstandings to achieve economic policies consistent with the promotion of the employment and economic growth that Keynes was seeking…”

    https://www.routledge.com/Macroeconomics-without-the-Errors-of-Keynes-The-Quantity-Theory-of-Money/Ahiakpor/p/book/9781138658561

    • Listened to a bit of it. Keynes’ argument wasn’t about ex-post saving, theory focused on desired saving or what he called ‘propensity to hoard’ or liquidity preference. His argument in the GT wasn’t that ex-post saving was bad – that would make no sense as its not a determining variable it’s just an accounting residual after deducting consumption from income. Argument was that higher desired saving in the absence of higher planned investment would depress income and therefore not translate into higher saving as the two activities were unrelated. at first unplanned inventories would increase showing up as greater investment but softer AD would then see businesses cut output and run down inventories.
      Whereas if below full employment an increase in planned investment would boost saving by boosting incomes.

      “The rise in the rate of interest might induce us to save more, if our incomes were unchanged. But if the higher rate of interest retards investment, our incomes will not, and cannot, be unchanged. They must necessarily fall, until the declining capacity to save has sufficiently offset the stimulus to save given by the higher rate of interest. The more virtuous we are, the more determinedly thrifty, the more obstinately orthodox in our national and personal finance, the more our incomes will have to fall when interest rises relatively to the marginal efficiency of capital. Obstinacy can bring only a penalty and no reward. For the result is inevitable”

      • I think that is what he is talking about / criticising. What does a propensity to hoard mean when the main thing that most people can “hoard” are bank system created credits.

        The kindle version of the book includes a preface which does a better job of explaining the point he is making than the interview. It includes some excerpts of correspondence etc. The free sample chapter that kindle usually gives might include that preface,

        I now have the book but I have not read it yet so reserving comment until I have a closer look.

      • Poor old Keynes. Never did get it.

        The higher interest rates go the greater the propensity to save and, the more savings there are the greater capital / funds available for investment. The greater the investment the more jobs are created, by definition. In a free market, which is sadly absent today, increased savings would naturally weigh on interest rates eventually as savers would overwhelm the number of borrowers at any given interest rate and rates would start to decline, keeping the price of money in check.

        Instead we live in a world where the monetary system can provide infinite quantities of credit at a fixed price, thus short-circuiting the natural laws hat would otherwise prevail and allowing policy makers to attempt to compel certain behaviors by economic actors. The village idiots we know today as central bankers believe that by simply lowering rates they can compel both greater consumption and investment simultaneously without impacting / damaging the economic balance.

        Never mind. Their folly will be exposed eventually. The mess we find ourselves in today is hard proof of their faulty thinking.

        • When you use the term natural laws [tm] the results are baked in ….

          You can’t use any one author as a stand alone, not to mention adjust for time and space, its not static. ‘A Treatise on Probability’ is more ground braking for its day than the rest of the macro because it calls into question the very methodology used by mainstream economics to arrive at its conclusions E.g. the issue today is quasi monetarists with a side of ridged ideological political dogma and not savings vs investment, unless one is doctrinaire in framing everything as TINA. I suggest Lars Syll for a better understanding of this perspective, it matters not if the initial observation is rubbish to start with and then run with it, only to blame the test subjects for non compliance.

          Personally I find the discussion of Keynes in relationship to the neoliberal period a distraction considering the dominance of the Chicago school and neoclassical economics, which IMO extends far beyond just academic, its ensconced in the judiciary, market attitudes, media, political sphere, social fabric, and young minds from the day they experience 24/7/365 full immersion multi media.

        • “Never did get it”
          I assume you “get” that purchases = sales?
          And saving = decision not to purchase stuff?
          And investment demand is driven by expectation of sales?

          • You need to ‘produce’ before you ‘consume’

            Get it?

            If you don’t get that basic concept then you don’t understand economics.

            Period.

    • Where credit goes, equity goes.

      The bondholders have a senior claim on the assets of a company if the company fails to pay their coupons / repay the debt.

      • PlanetraderMEMBER

        Apart from default the big issue with corporate debt is that if investment grade gets downgraded to junk a lot of the big investment and pension funds that hold them have rules stating they can’t hold junk so the spiral down begins.

  9. So yesterday I took some curry for suggesting that General Robert Spalding (an expert on China) may not be all that well informed about China outside of the Shanghai (actually the Pudong) bubble.
    OK so lets suggest the General was a real go-getter and was out there every day observing and making contacts among the locals far and wide. What would have this experience entailed? What information was it possible for White guy to extract in two years? Remember we are talking 2002-2004.

    I’ll try to give you the lay of the land at the time so that you can better understand the information gathering means available to the General.
    OK lets assume he lived at Green Villas Jinquao district of Pudong
    If so he almost certainly grocery shopped at Carrefore (or maybe Metro )
    So how many regular everyday Chinese would he have met at either of these stores?
    He almost certainly had at least one house-keeper (Ayi) and one driver (both driver and Ayi would have been vetted by both US and Chinese intelligence services)
    The car was almost certainly a dark blue seven seater Chevy minivan.
    So if he wanted to go anywhere then he would have been driven there by a driver who understood that the General was there on a two years assignment whereas the driver was there for life (which could have been a very short life if the General accidentally discovered anything) btw both the driver and Chinese Intelligence service understood that the passenger was a US military General.
    OK so lets assume he snuck off without his driver and decided to go incognito. How far would a middle aged white guy get travelling alone in Eastern China before he attracted the attention of the local constabulary? Maybe all the way to Suzhou or Hangzhou but definitely no further.
    What would happen if he got off the train at some random stop and tried walking through the old-town. So remember we have a middle aged white guy alone walking through a locals only village. I’ll tell you what would have happened. Little kids would be screaming Laowai, Laowai, Laowai if it wasn’t the kids it would be the Elderly. They weren’t being disrespectful just surprised, what would have happened if he stopped and (used his excellent language skills) to try to talk with a local , say a lady selling vegetables, maybe with even the pretense of buying some vegetables. Well the seller would not have been impolite BUT they would have been extremely guarded along the lines of this doesn’t make any sense wtf is this white guy doing here? IS anyone (as in any official) observing him? what will happen to me if I F’up and say something that I shouldn’t? Remember most of these street side merchants didn’t have a Shanghia Residency permit so they could be gathered up and shipped off to Education Encampments (mainly in Anhui..from what I understand) for any reason at all. So what exactly did the General learn from his solo adventure?
    Let’s imagine he stopped for Lunch somewhere and initiated a conversation with the owner, what would he learn?
    Lets suppose he met a local factory owner at said restaurant, would he gain the trust of this local Chinese businessman and somehow extrapolate this into a strategic understanding of the local Chinese business community? Would he be able to do so without attracting attention? remember that all the locals are still screaming Laowai and wondering why one of their own is talking to the Laowai. The local businessman would be quizzed by others after about exactly what the Laowai wanted )if only out of curiosity). needless to say that if a second meeting occurred than this would definitely attract the attention of the Chinese intelligence community.
    So HOW does a diligent hard working US airforce General get the inside skinny on China?
    What information can he possibly gather?
    What clandestine meetings can he hold?
    What disaffected groups will he get to actually talk with one-on-one?

    My point is that the task is impossible so being humans we define our tasks in the realm of the possible and enjoy the process.
    Our General would have defined a successful meeting as a Round of Golf where he met a local business man
    A very successful meeting would have involved drinks at the 19th hole
    A real strategic breakthrough would have been an invitation to diner.
    As for the rest of your life you tried to not change too much. Your kids wanted to keep up with all the TV shows that their friends back in the US were watching so you pretty much only watched US cable TV (using an Internet Slingbox) The local Chinese TV sucked it had very few channels and the content was terrible.
    This last point is very important: If the General was exceedingly good at developing a wide range of contacts working in a variety of occupations at various locations throughout China than at the time his activities would almost certainly have come to the attention of the Chinese Intelligence community and they would be well aware of his sources. Is this really success?

    I initially viewed these 2 year assignments as a challenge to develop contacts and an in depth personal understanding of China BUT it’s only with the benefit of hindsight that I can see that their real purpose was to introduce you (as a prospective intelligence users) to the vagaries of the process that we all call humint (human Intelligence information gathering) especially wrt a country like China.

    • SnappedUpSavvyMEMBER

      He went back to chyna after the 2 year stint and learnt the chinaman language, he must have been there awhile it’s not an easy language to learn, watch the vid

        • Yeah and I’m certain he also learned to speak perfect Wu dialect. after all it’s only a little bit different from Mandarin NOT!

    • So, do you think his opinions are correct or not, based on whatever information and knowledge you suggest he acquired? My sister went to China in 1988, and returned recently as part of a trip to visit her son, who now lives and works in Taiwan, and is married to a local lass, and her view was “China has changed, but it’s just the same”

      • Not sure I understood the question. is it do I agree with his assessment?
        Yes I do agree on many levels but that’s not the point. because in the same way that his sources are compromised so are mine. My opinions reflect only the information gained from communities that I’m able to move freely within. So today I can move freely throughout most of China but the breadth of contacts that I can develop is still extremely narrow. This means that my point of view is shaped by relatively few actual human interactions and is therefore subject to a high degree of Disinformation (or at least the possibility of disinformation dissemination) .

        • This is a discussion right…. good.
          i think based on my very limited experience that being a white guy might just assist in getting genuine local opinion as he is not a spy for the CCP.

          Is this accurate or is it part of a disinformation program bu the pentagon,? Yes I think it is and I think the end game in the economic war is a/ to create a, “we didn’t start it we are just responding to agression'” situation and b/ renege on the treasuries because of the economic war, reparations for IP theft etc.
          Maybe…

          • Interesting take re confiscation of Treasuries as reparation for IP theft. I can certainly see where the US is continuing to develop this narrative even though in many cases the the direction of the theft of ideas has already reversed. IP theft was a huge issue back in the early 2000’s but reality is that you can’t stay ahead (or ever get ahead) by copying, so basing a product on stolen IP is a good way start a business but it confines your company to producing low margin products unless you start to push the frontiers in some area and means developing IP.

    • Fisho

      Ah, I can remember times where I’d be at a train station in some regional Chinese city and if I stopped moving there’d be 20, 30, 40 locals crowded around staring at me. No point in me trying to engage with them as to them I was an exhibit in a zoo. Long ago I had accepted that I am three bag ugly but being able to pull crowds was still novel and a bit unnerving.

      More seriously, it was worse when I had my kids with me, as people would attempt to pick them up and take them away to show them to others (it was good in restaurants as all the waitresses turned into baby sitters). A caucasian friend on mine had someone walk up and pinch one of her children on their arm so as to hear what noise they made. As I said, like exhibits in a zoo.

      • When I was travelling in some remote parts of South Western China back in about 2004 my family would always draw a crowd. Especially my 2 years old daughter with bleach blond hair. The locals with their absolutely filthy finger nails would be digging their fingers into her scalp to see if it was a bleach hair job. evidently they’d never seen a kid with naturally almost white hair.
        They couldn’t understand that I was pissed that they were sticking their filthy fingers in my daughters hair.
        It’s amusing to think back about that time I remember more than once seeing a dog grilled on a street BBQ and trying to explain to my young kids that it wasn’t really a dog…but it was.
        Because I worked for a Chinese company I had to go on all of these crazy organized Goldern week company vacations I’ll tell you that experience gave me life time supply of unbelievable stories.

  10. interested partyMEMBER

    Schiff…..you lying piece of crap. If Trump is so bad, why do you need to fabricate stuff to be effective? Wouldn’t you have the capacity to remove the man legally if the evidence actually existed? Didn’t you have the evidence within the Mueller report?; you stated countless time that you did…..

    https://thefederalist.com/2019/10/18/adam-schiff-flip-flopped-on-whistleblower-testimony-after-reports-of-coordination/

    but I reckon you are just protecting connections you don’t want exposed….

    https://dailycaller.com/2019/08/07/jeffery-mark-epstein-democratic-representatives/

    Reading that piece brings a whole raft of familiar names into the light…….I wonder what links these peeps have to china cash flows? These bastards almost succeeded in dismembering the USA and selling it bit by bit in a fire sale.

    • “Great! Thank you Hillary Clinton, You, the queen of warmongers, embodiment of corruption, and personification of the rot that has sickened the Democratic Party for so long, have finally come out from behind the curtain.”

      “From the day I announced my candidacy, there has been a concerted campaign to destroy my reputation. We wondered who was behind it and why. Now we know — it was always you, through your proxies and powerful allies in the corporate media and war machine, afraid of the threat I pose.”

      You go girl!

      • interested partyMEMBER

        I like her as well. She seems to be ‘clean’ and gawd knows the world needs more of that.
        Let the Trump wrecking ball do its job and clean out the crap first, then Tulsi will have a decent platform to work from. I am afraid her time is not yet.

      • Don’t know. Don’t care.
        She’s obviously had work done.
        No one looks like that at 70.
        But it is of a higher standard than a lot of the men you see around Toorak and Bondi these days.

    • Good link
      “Broadly speaking, we are a society of altruists governed by psychopaths” – Monbiot.
      Very true. neoliberalism has been a real life experiment or a way for the psychopaths to prove their hypothesis (prejudice) that greed and selfishness underpin growth and order; that it only produces division stagnation and illness doesn’t matter because the billionaires are selfish and they are billionaires so it must be good.
      Also worth noting that Friedman was open about the fact that his theories could be based on rubbish assumptions, what mattered supposedly was the logical form.
      Should be required reading for the people debating “culture” up the page. imo the worst part about the culturalist way of thinking is not the waste of time aspect – it’s the idea that the “culture” can somehow be determined independently to the dominant economic ism and ideas and distribution of wealth/power, even though the distribution of wealth/power determines who produces and sells the culture to everyone else and what form it takes.

        • It becomes a cycle where the ism raises and rewards psychopaths who end up managing altruists. psychopathic motives and management don’t motivate the altruists so the psychopaths elevate their own.

      • A quote I read during the week ran through my mind while listening to the episode.

        “The best definintion we have found for civilisation is that a civillised man does what is best for all, wheel the savage does what is best for himself. Civillisation is but a huge mutual insurance company against human selfishness.”

        The haves have rigged the game so that their selfishness is rewarded and have also taken control of the narrative so that it is seen as virtuous. That is a lot to overcome to allow others to also have a voice and an opportunity.

  11. interested partyMEMBER

    ” Maricopa County Assessor Paul Petersen has been indicted in Arizona, Utah and Arkansas on state and federal charges that he is running an illegal adoption ring. ”

    ” In all, he’s facing 62 criminal charges involving dozens of pregnant woman brought in from the Marshall Islands to supply babies to Petersen’s clients and millions to his bank account. ”

    “Make no mistake, this case is the purest form of human trafficking,” the U.S. Attorney for western Arkansas, Duane “Dak” Kees, said Wednesday at a press conference in Springdale Ark. where he announced the federal indictments.

    ” But what IS NOT public, until now, is Petersen’s curious association with GOP critics of President Trump, including former US Sen. Jeff Flake, late Sen. John McCain, and Sen. Mitt Romney among others. Petersen also campaigned for and is friends with Arizona Gov. Goug Ducey and other politicians, according to records and sources. ”

    https://truepundit.com/top-never-trumpers-tied-to-politician-indicted-for-human-smuggling-and-selling-children/

    You see……it’s not a political proclivity to want to profit from children. All sides of politics are involved. Would any of this be exposed if anyone from “within” the system had won the presidency?
    Can you see why Trump is being attacked all all fronts? How come he is still standing?

  12. I’m planning on creating an ethnic no go zone in Australia. I think I might call it ‘Little Hong Kong’, or, ‘Hong Kong Town’. We already have China town, so why not.

  13. Further to H’n’Hs article about Australia becoming part of USA, one upside of adopting the second amendment would be keeping politicians in check.

        • The reason agents of corporations can’t be sued as individuals is the power granted to corporations by the state. The state loves corporations. That’s why there is so much flow between the two. The worst excesses of the private sector is where it intersects with the state.

          • I think you have missed the effects of networks and monies per se the original founders of neoliberalism were anti democratic and pro corporatist E.g. they were anti social democracy as a function of the state, always happy with the state supporting their agenda. Hence the suggestion that the state as a monolith is pro anything one way or the other is lacking heterodox perspectives E.g. Ideologue punching bag.

            Smells like Hopple in here on occasion.

      • Better than they otherwise would be without the second amendment. Despite the best effort of ‘progressives’ (take that right wingers!).

  14. The Traveling Wilbur

    I was walking past a shelf and saw some butt clasps this morning in Mitre 10. Immediately thought of the MBers.

    Have a good weekend all.
    (and no, I didn’t)

    • Moments like these you need a Minsky

      If your travels take you to the beach Wilbur?……….freckle tanner’s aren’t for holding umbrella’s!

      • The Traveling Wilbur

        An American and an Irishman meet on a plane and decide to share the cost of a rental car to get to their conference destination from the airport they land at.

        They walk off the plane together and the Irishman leads them towards the Avis counter.

        As soon as the American realises what’s transpiring (which took a while) the Irishman’s at the counter already and the American loudly exclaims “But… Hertz!”.

        The Irishman calmly turns round and replies: “I like you buddy, but we’ve only just met so I don’t care how painful it is, that’s your problem.”.

        • Moments like these you need a Minsky

          lol. Since Maastricht, I’d have pegged Paddy to be on a budget 🙂

          • The Traveling Wilbur

            Yes, but they always have to tell them twice. Especially when there’s an Australian in the audience.

            Just to be sure to be sure.

            PS Irishmen know how to make puns too me’lad. To be sure.

          • No they don’t… 😁 I never understood why people said Jones about the Irish being stupid. Some of the most witty intelligent people you’ll ever meet and I’ve been to many places. Your average American on the other hand. Thick as mud.

          • Gavin,

            I believe that it is from the potato famine days. A third of Ireland’s population migrated. These were often the uneducated peasants. They were just ignorant in the classic sense of the word. Being unexposed to what was considered common knowledge and behaviours and thus labeled as fools. It’s why cultural stereotyping is daft. In the early 20th century both Japan and Korea had similar reputations. As their society shifted from agricultural to industrial they became known as diligent and productive peoples.

          • @bolstrood reminds me, that when the Irish were abroad and behaving badly, they would always tell people they were English. 🙂

    • This is not real policy. It is the appearance of real policy. A smokescreen to obscure business as usual.

      • Migrant numbers to the region are like GDP numbers; the headline looks great and the Government claims victory. Take a look under the hood and it’s rotten.

    • ‘skilled’ migrant that isn’t qualified to work locally and doesn’t speak a word of English, of course ABC won’t question it.

  15. Here’s one that didn’t get into the links list at page top:
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-19/irrigators-slam-murray-darling-basin-authority/11619354

    Irrigators (ie big ag. lobby groups) and National Party MPs (ie their minions) don’t like that the Murray Darling Authority publicly released satellite photos showing farms with full water storages in a time of pumping bans.

    Of course they don’t like it. Now it’s public it’s going to be hard to bury it. Someone in the MDA understands how things work in Australia. Bravo!

    • If the big ag fvcks and their National Party gimps were above board as they claim to be then they’d have no objections to satellite surveillance.

  16. Went to an open on the Gold Coast today. Crazy busy, been on the market a while. Banks must be shovelling it out again.

    • Who’d fcken live on the Goldie?

      It is literally full of geriatrics and the worst of humanity.

    • I caved and bought a house a few weeks ago Andrew. I guess it will collapse now that I’ve capitulated, still hope it does. Good luck with your search.

  17. Whilst were at it:

    As compared with most Americans, Trump’s voters are better off. The median household income of a Trump voter so far in the primaries is about $72,000, based on estimates derived from exit polls and Census Bureau data. That’s lower than the $91,000 median for Kasich voters. But it’s well above the national median household income of about $56,000. It’s also higher than the median income for Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders supporters, which is around $61,000 for both.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-mythology-of-trumps-working-class-support/

    Heck of a pickle it would seem, oligarchical efforts to undermine democracy with a side of those that can feel the brass ring just out of fingers reach ….

    • interested partyMEMBER

      So what is it……the deplorables have been benefiting from increased wages?…or heaven forbid……voter bracket creep with the middle class now on board the Trump train?

      • For those that live in a polemic world afflicted by Halo effect [look it up] it denotes the falsehood and PR marketing narrative for what it is …

          • IP

            The point is Trump has and will never be a working class wage family anything, just pop over to EPI and look at what he has done to labour laws, financial – banking deregulation, environmental deregulation, enabled more corporate looting, more FIRE sector profit, its a long list.

            If anything its like watching Eddie Obeid becoming PM and both the LNP and Right wing labour chucking a wobbly for making them look both inept and peeling all pretense off the game being played. I’ve always said Trump will destroy the GOP and thank him for it, that does not mean I favor the DNC, just the opposite I support Sanders agenda with or without him.

          • I like the Eddie Obied comparison. Yet, I think it is too sophisticated. Anyone who has seen a property developer tear through a town knows Trump’s game. It is purely transactional. He’s making promises then not paying the contractors while looking for any other side deal he thinks will earn him something. Any benefits to the community are incidental to what he ends up gaining for himself.

          • footsore …

            Then some are confused about inverted totalitarianism – once the claims on the emerging markets negated easy profits the focus got turned inward. Thought the last Curtis doco segment on the NYC bond sale 11th hour manufactured coup to leverage the political sphere in evicting the unwashed, making space for the developer – finance mob to set up shop for the FIRE sector and its employees wasn’t plain as day.

  18. CHINA … OFFICE VACANCIES …

    China Office Vacancies Reach Decade High on Slowing Economy … Bloomberg

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-17/china-office-vacancies-reach-decade-high-on-slowing-economy

    China’s deepening economic slowdown and a glut of supply has pushed the nation’s office vacancy rate to the highest since at least 2008.

    The vacancy rate in 17 major cities climbed to 21.5% in the third quarter, according to CBRE Group Inc. The “spike” in vacancies this year is the worst since the depths of the global financial crisis a decade ago, said Sam Xie, the firm’s head of research in China.

    Lights Out
    China’s office-vacancy rate has climbed to the highest in least a decade. … read more via hyperlink above …
    .
    .
    Office Vacancies In China Hit Decade High Amid Economic Turmoil … Zerohedge

    https://www.zerohedge.com/economics/office-vacancies-china-hit-decade-high-amid-economic-turmoil

    China’s office market sees highest vacancy rate in a decade … Financial Times

    https://www.ft.com/content/edce2600-f0a0-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195

    • Yes, been wondering about this for a while, they should be at peak earnings about now workforce should begin shrinking in the next decade but with the huge increase in higher education I guess office space may have several more decades of demand as most graduates would still be younger. (assuming things progress as it has so far)

    • A developer selling a penthouse to a related entity for some publicity and to set expectations for the prices of other units in the same building?

      I smell a rat.

      • I’ve always wondered at this possibility and then dismissed it on the grounds that the stamp duty would make it not worthwhile.

    • TailorTrashMEMBER

      Could buy half of Kenya and an army to defend it for that dosh ……..it must be the view of Darling harbour……..either that or there is some serious hidden devaluation of the Strayan dollar happening ……….

    • One of Cole’s transport subbies is Punjabi Express.

      It is a pity that many of their drivers stick in the right lane.

  19. 10 minutes before seeing the PUNJAB CAB, I saw a car run into the rear of another at a traffic light. Driver of the hit car ( a nice car with SLYK name on the side – an upmarket UBER?) gets out. Looks like he’s from the subcontinent. Walks quickly to the other car, which looks like a food delivery car. Driver of it gets out. He’s also from the subcontinent. I look to my left, there’s a taxi. Driver is wearing a turban.

    • A couple of weeks ago, I paid a visit to the People’s Republic of Chatswoo(d) on Sydney’s lower north shore. Now, I know that it has had a significant tiddlywink population for some time but, not having been there for a couple of years, I was astonished at its transformation – I was barely able to spot a Caucasian person. Signage everywhere was in Chinee, the most prominent English word being “noodle”, not plural but singular – you mean you’ve only got one?! I won’t be going back to Chatswoo – it’s no longer representative of what our country is or, probably, will be.

      • SnappedUpSavvyMEMBER

        You can add Hurstville, Fairfield, Liverpool, Rockdale, Wolli Creek, Kingston, the CBD, lower north shore and probably many more that are no longer Australian or will ever be again, and I don’t mean anything white, I mean Australian

      • Ronin8317MEMBER

        If you can’t stand Chatswood, then don’t visit Eastwood, Epping, Carlingford, Hurstville, Burwood, Straitfield, Campsie, Ashfield, Fairfield, Granville, Auburn, Bankstown, Liverpool, Parramatta.. the list is getting way too long..

      • “the most prominent English word being “noodle”, not plural but singular – you mean you’ve only got one?” Yep, you’re on the money there … just as Pizza Hut has only one pizza, Kentucky Fried Chicken only had one chicken and in the whole of the Dymocks Bookstore chain there is only a single book.

        Noodle House is a style of cantonese eatery, quick service, cold cuts, a range of noodle dishes, casual setting, usually cheap which is very popular in general – the oldest noodle house in Canberra is normally packed, and with far more white fellas than chinese. The use of “noodle” amongst the chinese characters actually indicates that that style of eatery is popular even in the broader community (so not the best example of what you were talking about).

        • I wasn’t clear. The type of signage I referred to was, for example, “ABC Noodle” or “XYZ Noodle”. Not that that is in the least important.

  20. So, I think it’s time to crack and buy a house. living in Brisbane and sick of renting and I can’t see prices making any meaningful change for at least 2 years, with the downside of more gimmie grants potentially being let into the country and pushing prices further upwarrds. have a high 200-300k deposit saved with a household income of ~$180k (and reaonsable odds for income to be $300k p.a in 4-6 years in safe industries.

    Anyone care to weigh in / talk me out of it.

    • Pacific Pines at the back side of GC can get you a mansion atop the hill for the cost of a dilapidated 1938 built shack in Sydney leafy shires. I went 2 weeks ago to see a few.
      Met an interesting car rental guy at OOL whom sold his Sydney home purchased in early 00’s relocated to GC by buying outright then drew straws with wife whom will work part time and whom stays at home with kids.
      Now that’s what in my book goes as best form of profiting from and hedging the bubble and then enjoying life/kids with 0 stress in sight.

    • Brisbane has been relatively stable post GFC with the exception of some bespoke inner and outer CBD rings with a some post war suburbs experiencing gentrification. Depends if you want cheep and cheerful for later remod or already up graded.

    • So its been imploding for 18 months – had a 3 month reprieve after $300 Billion stimulus and 3 rate cuts – of mildly slowing the price falls (still falling) on record low volumes, we are about to head into a 30% decline in employment through the construction collapse.

      Lols.

      No – we are in a recession and things are about to get vastly worse. The immigration numbers are the only thing stemming a total systemic nation wide collapse – seriously. And those migrant numbers are also possibly the single greatest contributor to financial malaise in a downturn and will also stoke huge civil unrest.

      The construction down turn has a 12 month lead time at least – remember that. The opal towers only happened at Christmas, it became a systemic issue about 4 months ago.

      The economic indicators surrounding retail consumer spending, loan applications, apartment sales, job ads etc all point to Australia right now being in a deep recession – its incredibly dire and again – that is AFTER a $300 billion stimulus and multiple rate cuts.

      What we are seeing here is a classic dead cat bounce.

      There are some great articles, research and even videos around about how housing market crashes play out – and what we are seeing in Australia is absolute classic example.

      The debt levels become so great prices stop climbing and price falls commence, those price falls are quite rapid and steep and people start panicking. There is a decline of 15-20% and wealthier buyers flood back into the market with their deposits and the market returns to growth on low volumes.

      However the initial price falls curtailed investors and developers who had massive lead times and were spooked at the initial price collapse who have pulled out of the market, delayed and cancelled projects. That activity has a long lead time but eventually plays into the market and unemployment causes the price falls to resume.

      From there the feed back loop of unemployment and high debt levels causes a catastrophic crash and prices fall 50-60%.

      SAME SCENARIO EVERY SINGLE TIME. In hundreds of examples.

      We are looking right now at the wealthier top end buying up on lower prices and very low volumes.

      Now factor into this several things – Australian apartments are unsalable. They are so bad in size, quality, design, habitability, commute etc – they are a disaster.

      Factor in the collapse in state government budgets through stamp duty – even this recent bounce will do nothing as it is on such low volumes – they are in serious trouble.

      Factor in the collapse of the Iron Ore price as Vale resumes and China upscales recycling – $40 iron ore would see the AUD at less than 50 cents USD – and that would pretty much wipe out every Australian middle class consumer.

      No factor in the impact of tradeable inflation. Firstly on oil prices. It matters not if we have low interest rates when we have a falling dollar – the effect is not just the same – its far worse. We have very little domestically produced products to capitalise off a low dollar from. It does not increase Iron Ore demand, nor education positions – it just smashes our trade balance and drive up the price of everything.

      But fuel is factored into the supply chain at every step. Consider clearing a forest (fuel), ploughing the field, fuel, planting , fuel, spraying, fuel, harvesting, fuel, packaging and transport, fuel, buying from the shop, fuel – every step is a higher cost.

      All foreign imported products are higher priced from clothes to electronics to dishwashing power.

      All domestic utilities etc are higher priced because they are foreign owned and the lower dollar means reduced profits so foreign owned companies will increase their charges.

      Its a classic dead cat bounce – moronic to buy now.

      • Agree with your reasoning Leo. I’ve been at it a long time and the word of Niels Bohr now haunt me
        “No, no, you’re not thinking; you’re just being logical.”
        Niels Bohr
        I find it hard to see how we get collapse without the eternal account running into strife. CB’s, in concert, are going to print in numbers that we cannot, even now, conceive – as in post GFC on a multiple scale. Aus looks a good place to which to send the loose hange. Maybe it requires the collapse of the world reserve currency – which is a given at some stage…but when?

        • I agree with that… I think they will try to achieve very high inflation of even 20% p/a to try to wipe away the debt, and not hike interest rates. Central banks loathe savers and have been trying to drive down the value of currency for years, if the global economy worsens then they’ll go hell to leather to eradicate the debt that is choking it. Can’t see the wisdom of holding currency that the government is deliberately trying to destroy in value.

          • Anything is possible…if they do go down this path then I don’t expect day to day life to resemble anything like it currently is.

        • Already right now with the quantitative easing which has been done the entire globe is in a deep economic malaise, most is in recession and many have civil unrest. Why not keep printing if that fixes things ?

          Answer – it does not. It is purely inflationary in high asset prices (not houses, but corporate equity). They want high house prices as its an excellent means of injecting into the economy however people can not afford the debt without wage increases.

          If we get wage increases then that is the genie in the massive money printing scheme which unleashes the rampant inflation which is the worst economic condition of all.

          Printing money, QE, has resulted in several unintended outcomes – the first is the LVO debt market which is without doubt going to bring down the global economy. Further it has entrenched total global economic stagnation – there can be no growth only treading water. Now we are also going backwards and there are calls for debt jubilees – especially in US student debts etc. That would unleash a far greater global financial crisis.

          The quantitative easing which has occurred will only save the economy when the increased money supply can be sucked up into tangible economic activity – that limit is predicated 100% on wage capacity to meet the debt limits. Without increases in wages to increase the consumption of debt the economies will implode. If we increase debt to meet those new limits – economies will implode.

          Fiat currencies are bound by that simple rule as is MMT theory – which is always “looked through” as though it were an annoying distraction.

          It is not an annoying distraction it is the very role gravity plays in humans ability to fly like the birds unaided. Sure you can ignore it leap off a cliff, and you will definitely be proving everyone wrong and 100% flying on the way down. But eventually, like the economy, you will crash.

          It is an immutable economic certainty which simply can not be avoided.

      • I really, really want your story to be true

        But you’ve disregarded how fiat currencies work

        Unfortunately, when the brown stuff starts heading towards the fan, the policy response will result in devaluation of the currency, and devaluation (in real terms) of the debt

        Doesn’t matter if you pay $AUD1000 for a barrel of oil, when you can print AUD. Equilibrium will be reached, it will just mean that creditors will see the real value of their assets (bonds and currency) decrease, and debtors will see the real value of their debt decrease.
        The real economy of trading goods and services is unaffected by shifting the decimal place

        • Doesn’t matter if you pay $AUD1000 for a barrel of oil, when you can print AUD.

          That is just so ridiculous its not funny – please see Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Argentina, etc, etc – people are simply unable to differentiate between MMT and the reality of its application which has indeed been done many, many times with total collapse.

          See my post above which deals with this absurd fallacy which needs to die.

          • you mean…like Japan

            A country with literally zero natural resources, no oil, and barely enough arable land to feed itself?

            you realize the yen halved in value after the bubble there?

            You realize Australia is a current account surplus nation now

        • you mean…like Japan

          A country with literally zero natural resources, no oil, and barely enough arable land to feed itself?

          • IF you actually bothered reading peoples posts and the ideas being expressed rather than simply pushing your own shopping trolley and barging through life you would see the point which is being made. REPEATEDLY.

            Australia is an import country. That means we are reliant on imports for almost everything and our terms of trade are based around a very limited inelastic commodity market. Iron Ore / Coal / services (education, banking).

            In other words – the Japanese yen falls – the cost of living does not spike as their products are domestically produced.

            Japans yen halved ?

            https://www.macrotrends.net/2550/dollar-yen-exchange-rate-historical-chart

            You are so full of sh1t. You seriously are.

            Japan is also the worlds third largest oil refiner on EARTH – you didn’t know that did you. Oh – and most of the country gets around on public transport as they all live in mega-cities and have natural gas contracts cents on the dollar – you should read MACROBUSINESS one day while also being one of the world largest nuclear powers.

            Inane post from yourself – truly inane.

      • My daughter, trawling through the Real Estate section of the Courier Mail, said to me tonight:

        “Why are there so many places for sale in Ascot?” (for the benefit of non-Brissy dwellers, Ascot is basically one of the most expensive suburbs in this city).

        “Obviously a vote of confidence,” was my reply.

        Inflation is on its way — but house prices won’t keep up.

        The yield curve is steepening again. Tick tock ..

    • HadronCollision

      Selling our 10 acres in Northern Rivers. Close to Lismore Base. I can see you transferring! 😉

  21. Professor DemographyMEMBER

    I just did it. Similar situation. Feel much better and still wish the market would implode. I now cannot be accused of talking my book.

    I wouldn’t suggest it if you were strapped for income to support it or worried about industry or employment. Your situation suggests buying to me. Even just for psychological reasons.

    I don’t see it imploding for a few years yet anyway.

    • I also caved this year to buy an apartment… don’t want to be an old man waiting for the time that the perpetual debt machine finally fails and can’t be roused by stimulus.

      • You talkin about me there sonny?
        I finally bought a house at GC a bit over 6 years ago. I’ve been predicting the collapse of Aus housing market for 40 years!!! 🙂 I always thought someone would try to do the right thing by the nation and its people. That was a really stupid idea! Then I finally realised how important decisions are made at the highest level of government. Nobody gives a RA and printing money is ALWAYS the best option because it is the easiest and suits the immediate goals.

    • So its been imploding for 18 months – had a 3 month reprieve after $300 Billion stimulus and 3 rate cuts of almost nothing – and we are about to head into a 30% decline in employment through the construction collapse but things should be fine.

      Lols.

      No – we are in a recession and things are about to get vastly worse.

      • I am wishing I had all my assets somewhere else but Aus – but where? I tried to shovel it off to my son to invest overseas – his response was that he couldn’t figure out where to invest his own money. He’s a very quantitative oriented bloke who saw what the CB’s were going to do in the GFC.

    • Yes, I wonder how long the various talking heads will maintain things are under control, that credit is still constrained, etc. Probably til the end of the year, maybe with a bit of an Xmas reset it can go through to Easter. From there, they can dust off their press releases on bubble warnings from around 2016 and reissue them. You know, the ones warning of a potential bubble developing if the rises continue. This of course was after prices were already in nosebleed territory and the market was crazy. The dumbening indeed.

      • mates managed to orchestrate another boom – every subsequent is shorter so this one will last maybe a year or year and a half

    • I went to 5 open homes today (nearly 6) and it was very mixed. All around the $800-$1.2M mark. Some were first week on market and there is always a lot more interest at that stage. Varying in block size from 800sqm -> 23 acres being the largest. North East Melbourne.

      I went to look at this 1 for $900-$990k but it sold already. but it was 30 acres.. which is huge. To be honest worth it too, because it was really hidden away and a lovely spot. If you are a shut in like most MBers. But quite far down a dirt road and my GTR Wagon is quite low to the ground (https://imgur.com/a/8nQgkGA) and doesn’t love long dirt roads much.. Need my old Jimny back.. I know a car isn’t a reason to not buy a house, but all 6 of my toys are low to the ground and or sports cars.. if I was into 4x4ing and wanted to start a weekend getaway (BnB) / Farm Stay this place would have been perfect.

      I also looked at this place.
      https://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-vic-hurstbridge-132134218
      Nice feel, but small inside and a long sloping block (felt very residential too, with neighbours close by), don’t rate it as being worth $1M despite the 5 acres. Just don’t see how I’d use the land, unless I was into keeping horses… Reusa would love the Jacuzzi though!

      I looked at this place here also (10 acres)
      https://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-vic-st+andrews-131266358
      But very tired and run down. Needs quite a bit of work and has been on the market for nearly 12 months. Needs to be more like $850k to really make it worth the effort to renovate and improve. Lovely view and all, but awkward layout and half arsed studio. Long dirt drive and not paved either.

      Looked at this Alistair Knox build in Warrandyte. It looked superb in photos and I thought I’m gonna make an offer on this 1, then I got there and felt quite let down. Only 1 bathroom, place felt very small, block was awkward for any kind of garage and the other non main bedrooms had limited shelf/storage space (basically none). I wanted to really like it, but in the end I left a bit disappointed.

      https://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-vic-warrandyte-132199146

      I feel it’s worth more like $800k, but the market will probably over pay I think. Warrandyte is nice, but this was a small block for the area..

      2 places we felt were really superb, 1 is under $1M and the other closer to $1.2 (vendors don’t want to give it away lol, been on the market a few months now). Lots of land (20+ acres).

      Going on a Mudbrick tour tomorrow, should be interesting. Be funny if 1 of the homes on the tour is a property I missed out on earlier in the years, since we’re doing the tour in that area…

      I see in comment below a lot of bears feeling like capitulating, I can somewhat understand and may do so myself, but I honestly feel we’re on the brink of the big 1. All economic indicators are going to custard and unemployment is gonna head up.. It doesn’t matter how much credit they pump into the zombie to keep it going if people don’t have work they can’t over-borrow / extend themselves. Game over I think..

      • Yup. See my comment above – its about to go full retard – now is definitely NOT the time to be buying.

        • Yes, I tend to agree and hope you’re correct. But you need to convince the missus. She’s over the roller coaster ride of emotions that is house buying. Can’t say I blame her, we’ve been close many times…

        • That’s probably the point – employment collapse will be a trigger. Won’t stop RBA going full lunacy.

      • Running out of puff?

        ‘He said the recent bounce in the market would not become the frenzied conditions last seen in 2017.

        “We think that is unlikely. We’ve had a flattening out of the market,” Mr Staver said. “I’m not convinced this growth will continue at the level that we’ve been seeing, although there are reports to the contrary.”’

        https://www.domain.com.au/news/melbourne-auctions-five-bedroom-fitzroy-share-house-passes-in-for-1-52-million-895542/?utm_campaign=strap-masthead&utm_source=the-age&utm_medium=link&utm_content=pos5&ref=pos1

          • And to prevent MP being considered MB! This is an important, and familiar phase. It’s called “Nothing to Worry About Here!”

            It’s where all the talking heads and pointy heads pretend that credit is contained, and that there really isn’t that much heat in the market. Very little chance of things getting carried away, etc.

            The next phase is known as “A Bubble May Form!” Readers will remember phase this from around 2015 / 2016 in the last boom. The same talking heads and pointy heads pretend to be concerned that if things continue like this for a few more years a bubble could form. This of course cleverly denies that a bubble EXISTS RIGHT NOW. Much wringing of hands follows as though the decision to apply MP is hard, complex, fraught with the danger of unintended consequences. Eventually all agree that a small water pistol should be aimed at the raging bushfire. For a short period of time.

        • Yeah Arch Staver does a LOT of warehouse conversions and high end properties in the Brunswick/Fitzroy areas, stuff in the $1.5-$2m+ range. So I’d trust what he’s saying.

      • ErmingtonPlumbing

        Bite the bullet and buy yourself a home Gav.
        If they just keep on jacking up immigration these “crazy prices” could continue to increase for decades.
        I remember my father, who brought a brand new lend lease built house in Ermo on 900m2+ for $12,000 in 1967, exclaiming (some years later) 100 thousand dollars for a house in Ermington!,…Fvcking ridiculous! (Property valuation for divorce settlement)
        I hope you don’t end up divorced before even buying bro!

        • My partner works directly with state ministers in Victoria – and like what is being very publicly said in NSW – no more migration. The budgets are shot. Everyones, and I mean EVERYONES, contract has been put on hold. Nothing is being renewed (while they shell out $300k for shovel leaners – sorry).

          Things are seriously grim and its entirely as a consequence of dealing with employment. What is said publicly and what is shaping public policy are two VERY different things.

          Migration is over – it simply will not continue in any way shape or form as it has in the last few years. The economy was able to withstand it as was the public perception of the “others” – foreigners.

          I am associated with some of Melbournes (ergo the worlds) biggest lefty, liberal, greenies – make no mistake – and even the most well deadlocked openly communist highly politically active Brunswick transgender vegans are openly discussing the problems of excessive migration.

          It has reached total saturation point and is definitively over.

          Any serious economic downturn (housing / apartment construction which is already coming at us like a tsunami over the horizon) will unleash absolute FURY across the entire electorate.

          Definitely over.

          • I really, really like the cut of your jib, as well as your comments. All rational sense is to agree with you as it is true. Unfortunately I do feel there are too many vested interests, hands being greased and even stupidity / shortsightedness that will prevent a big collapsee soon

          • Mining BoganMEMBER

            Yep 520, they have no worries about destroying the country to prevent the crash. In fact, it would appear they would prefer to destroy the place without even being concerned about high asset prices.

            The plebs had it too good for too long. We need to be punished for getting uppity and getting in their way.

          • Just like the house prices, the migration rates have been ludicrous for years, it’s just an awful reality of living in Australia that I don’t think will ever change even if 99% of the population want numbers cut. I’ll honestly be beyond stunned if within a few years we’re seeing big cuts to migration, if anything I expect numbers to increase because they still are with the foreign students etc.

        • @EP – don’t worry the missus won’t divorce me, she doesn’t believe in divorce. :). I’d have to do something really bad for that. Heck we spent 15 years together before we tied the knot…. what’s 15 more years searching for the right home? haha.. she just hates getting emotionally invested in the idea of a home and then putting in an offer and having someone else come in over the top of that offer or being outdone by contract conditions or some other issue comes up that makes it a no go-er..

          We will get there eventually.. just gotta be patient.

          • Yup. Emotion can lead to bad decisions but I understand where your missus is coming from.

            We had a shocking experience renting and my missus insisted on buying so I relented. Thank goodness I did because the timing happened to be perfect: 2011. But that’s just dumb luck on the timing front.

            Right now, this looks like a serious dead cat.

            Yield curves are beginning to steepen too (in the US) so that will put a dent in demand. I hate to be in your situation because it’s really unclear but I can’t see higher inflation being good for strayan house prices.

    • https://www.allhomes.com.au/news/canberra-auctions-rare-griffith-townhouse-sells-for-1-05-million-895496/?utm_campaign=strap-masthead&utm_source=canberra-times&utm_medium=link&utm_content=pos5

      So this one in Canberra sold at auction yesterday. I didn’t go but the article is just full of BS. There was just one bidder and they paid just over a mill for a 3/4 bed townhouse. But it’s a relative bargain compared to five other sales between $1.19-1.36 million in the same complex over the last 5-10 years.
      https://www.allhomes.com.au/ah/research/ovens-street-griffith-act-2603/19207712/sale-history

      • The Traveling Wilbur

        I should be more generous about this. It must be so hard being an Aussie supporter these days. Given how little there is left for any of them to care about.

        Womens netball and cricket teams are fairly choice though. Getting better in leaps and bounds. And destroying the opposition almost every game.

      • The Traveling Wilbur

        I say should…

        But resisting the urge to post links to ads on gumtree for second-hand dog-collars and chokers is… hard…

    • nope, debt is directly inverse to nation’s propensity to protest.
      In the last 6 yrs M2 and Lane Cove tunnel toll went near double and not even a moderate complaint, let alone protest. Heck if system banged common aussie’s wife and daughter in a threesome, there would be no protest.
      Unless system approves of a protest… you know… like… redefining the oldest human institution, etcetera…

      • “debt is directly inverse to nation’s propensity to protest” until such time as an individual(s) can’t repay the debt and the lender is taking life-changing steps to call it in! Then the Twitter link becomes a clear and obvious course of action.

    • Interesting how quickly the office tower burned. Those protesters seem to be a lot more on the ball than the ones in HK. Seems it all started over cost of living and metro fare increases …. hmmm

    • this was not about metro ticket price but slowly brewing in background for ages – Chile is deeply divided society with among the highest rate of inequality
      than there is current situation in Ecuador

      • True – and I don’t doubt the underlying factors. Interesting parallel in Lebanon with the WhatsApp tax. Media bytes.

        I wonder how long Australia has until we find we have run out of luck allowing inequality to get out of hand. I guess it will be a mix of CCP style repression, with protection outsourced to private security firms with shotguns, barbed wire fences and Alsations ala Caracas or JoBerg. Vibrants will be excluded from rioting due to threat of deportation but will flourish in the economic no go / no tax zones with their family structure consisting of nominated welfare recipients, cash in hand work and drug dealing. The poor wh!te residents will cop it the hardest.

        Not a place I’d like to have too much money tied up in an illiquid asset, not to mention one vulnerable to being torched.

        I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – the Australia we knew and loved is dead

        • we don’t need CPP to teach us repression, our English ancestors taught us and other English background countries repression well before CPP learned also from them.
          our police is one of the most brutal when it comes to “public order” not shy of killing people and crushing skulls even now in 21st century

      • The Traveling Wilbur

        Well, yes. Yes it f’arkin’ is. The irony is he gets to wear whatever happens next after being the one who got the UK into this in the first place via his contribution (from a back seat in terms of responsibility at the time) to the Leave campaign *prior* to the UK populace telling the EU where they could stick their cucumbers.

        The timing, irony, and sense of justice being done is epic. Nay, righteously epic.

        This craven excuse for a peoples’ representative has been due ever since his second HIGNFY appearance. It’s like watching Abbott lose his seat. But better.

        • Not to mention the whole leave campaign was sold as liberty and freedom [tm] when it was actually about regulations, the ultras wanted to screw down labour and environmental laws for looting, immigrants were just a scapegoat.

          Now their not even going to get the Thatcher discount and have to get back of the line – all over again. Not to mention after this lark whom is going trust contracts with them, have fun with America because it loves to dominate and dictate terms – see south – central America.

          Pretty sad actually because the pre Thatcher Tory conservatives would not have a bar of any of this ultra rubbish, especially when so much of it was just to thwart Corbyn’s democratic chances. Now the rhetoric will have to be dialed up for the faithful and lay blame else where ….

    • From that article …

      “A similar 20 per cent shortage of workers last year was eased when growers increased recruitment by offering higher wages – the average is £12 per hour – and better bonuses.”

      Sounds familiar.

    • The Traveling Wilbur

      Ensure existing staff receive permanent wage rises and pay casuals performance bonuses. Obviously. Like all fair, reasonable and good-corporate-citizen employers would do in a similar situation.

      Personally, I’d just figure out how much that extra pay amounts to and then use it to import apples from China. And rebrand them.

        • The Traveling Wilbur

          And I’m watching the corporates and the Australian voters run it play-by-play.

          As of this year, all of my investment decisions are based on it. All of them.

      • Or just advertise the Apples as British, specifically NON CHINESE and free of pollution, charge double and pay your staff accordingly.

        Even better – capitalise on the air of propaganda and advertise them as cruelty free. Charge triple.

  22. CALIFORNIA …

    California Is (Again) Teetering On The Edge Of Financial Ruin … Zerohedge

    https://www.zerohedge.com/political/california-again-teetering-edge-financial-ruin

    For years, it had been speculated that California’s state-wide model of heavy regulation, expensive education, high taxes and bloated spending would eventually drive the state into financial ruin, according to a new Bloomberg Opinion piece. Over the last 15 years, the state also has had to deal with widespread blackouts and an unemployment rate that ballooned to 12% after the financial crisis. … read more via hyperlink above …

  23. GunnamattaMEMBER

    Maybe best to have that bacon (or pork, or ham) soon……

    I think prices will be going up in Oz for sure…..

      • GunnamattaMEMBER

        I think the swine flu will push the uptake (and development of) synthetic meat, and that over time this will likely become the meat du jour for relatively impecunious (or thrifty debt laden types) peoples everywhere

        • The Traveling Wilbur

          I’ve read that that story, so I know how it ends. Literally. I’d wager you have too.

          It’s one of the most frightening visions of the future I’ve ever been exposed to. 1984 is, by comparison, only a communist expose. Start running narc operations on people wanting to eat real bread and you begin to touch on just how corrupted our present day society could become. Easily.

        • GunnamattaMEMBER

          Well I read Hitch hikers guide to the galaxy too.

          Maybe they will breed cattle which will parade around in restaurants begging to be eaten.

          Short of that simple changes to the mix of our synthetic meat should enable a bit of the old soylent green

          …and cockroach milk of course – calorie rich apparently

          Cockroach milk: The superfood of the future is now
          https://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/this-gross-creature-may-create-the-superfood-of-the-future?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1571433880

          • The Traveling Wilbur

            Split the difference? Maybe we should just have done with it and eat the vegetarians.

            PS when they make artificial meat that tastes and chews like wagyu, I’ll be all over it. Until then you can take my cold-dead quarterpounder from my hand at your peril.

          • GunnamattaMEMBER

            Most vegetarians I know have a strange bouquet.

            a weird sort of earthiness with a touch of mung bean aroma at the back of the nose

          • KFC have trialed mock chicken overseas and it is meant to be pretty good. There’s a vegan restaurant group called Loving Hut. It is run by a weird cult Buddhist Cult, but don’t let that put you off. They are probably less evil than whoever is running where you otherwise dine at. The food is decent and it is at a good price. It isn’t as cheap as the Harre Krishnas, yet you get a better range and more of a restaurant feel.

          • The Traveling Wilbur

            How is a restaurant that serves food that’s been taunted before death ethical?

            (sorry, it’s been a loooooong day) 😂

        • …development of) synthetic meat, and that over time this will likely become the meat du jour for relatively impecunious (or thrifty debt laden types) peoples everywhere…

          Soylent Green is the future.
          2022 is not too far…

      • HadronCollision

        Re your comment about Wagyu, I get that

        Try though this: https://www.woolworths.com.au/shop/productdetails/694661/funky-fields-mince-100-plant-based

        I was skeptical, but wife and I were shocked how it tastes in spag bog.

        It is UNBELIEVABLY good in vegan / veg spag bol, burgers, pies, burrito/etc

        What with Vege Delights’ Facon and the above, plus these from Eaty foods (and their burgers), things have all of a sudden gotten much better

        https://shop.coles.com.au/a/a-national/product/eaty-pork-style-sausages-3516190p

        • The Traveling Wilbur

          OMJGM. The following is the ingredients list and it is awesome:

          Rehydrated SOY protein/-isolate (58 %), water, coconut oil, SOY flour, WHEAT gluten, ALMONDS, porcini mushrooms, tomato, fermented dextrose, tapioca starch, salt, malt extract (BARLEY), color (beetroot), natural aroma, maltodextrin, stabilizer (methylcellulose)

          I would have PAID someone to create that. Seriously. Forget that it’s ‘meat substitute’, that is going to be awesome in its own right (assuming the mushrooms are quality and a high enough %). And… I can eat every one of those ingredients*.

          Though of course it’s not fckn available where I am (at least atm). But thank you. This is awesome. I will be buying asap. LOTS.

          *If beetroot is the devil’s vegetable (simply for staining your clothes) then modified corn/maize starch is its handmaiden – and can kill some peoples’ guts. Tapioca is the angel vegetable sent from heaven to save us from evilly modified starch. Combining beetroot, tapioca and mushroom is a stroke of culinary genius.

  24. Hey – lookie here: https://www.zerohedge.com/political/cia-analysts-lawyer-brennan-clapper-ensnared-expanding-russiagate-probe

    There was once a piece of sh!t named Downer,
    A pompous git, he had a talent for dressing like a her!

    Completely devoid of talent, Downer had a challenge,
    Bereft of honest means to earn crust, he took to worshiping at a henge.

    That goddamn Pagan… sing it with me, that Satan worshiping pagan…

    A portly man, suddenly found he could make his own big break,
    He could turn coat, betray his own people, setup life like a fat juicy steak…

    He setup Papadopoulos, and then ran to his handlers at Mi6,
    Trump was done, the buffoon would never see it was in, the fix.

    Unfortunately he, Truffles and Gnome-face forgot that golden rule,
    If you go at the emperor, you best not miss, you silly fools!

    Everyone… repeat after me, Alexander Downer, that goddamn pagan…

  25. So is the moral of this story is that in Australia it pays to cheat because all our regulators are gutless?

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-20/bathurst-team-accused-of-using-script-stripped-of-points-fined/11621198

    The authorities found that the actions of the team wilfully gave one of the team cars an unfair advantage, by disadvantaging the other team car. So what did the authorities decide by way of penalty? They penalised the disadvantaged team car and allowed the other car, the one that “won” the race after benefitting from the unfair advantage, to retain its benefit from that unfair advantage. Doesn’t seem right to me.

    • Mining BoganMEMBER

      Don’t forget the bit about the winning driver complaining about unfair criticism of their unfair act. That’s very Strayan too.

      • The Traveling Wilbur

        Too right. They’ve sandpapered over the manifold cracks in this story and we’d be ungrateful if we didn’t just move on.

  26. https://www.curbed.com/2019/10/16/20917025/retirement-seniors-senior-housing-harvard-report-2019?

    US housing
    Housing in America is at an inflection point. While affordability and homeownership have become critical issues holding back the nation’s economy, the housing problems of the oldest Americans may be the most acute issue receiving the least attention. According to the latest senior housing study from The Harvard Joint Center on Housing Studies (JCHS), the challenges facing seniors and older baby boomers have become more critical.

  27. interested partyMEMBER

    Did you know…..
    JFK was killed on his 1000th day as Potus….in Dallas, Texas.

    Did you also know….
    Trump just spent his 1000th day at a rally……in Dallas, Texas.

    JFK is quoted ( accuracy ? ) as having said ” I will splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter them to the wind”.

    Did you know….
    The Wikileaks Vault 7 data drop password was ” I will splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces ”

    I could be argued that Trump is now in the process of completing JFK’s task.
    DJT happened to be very good friends of JFK Jr.

        • interested partyMEMBER

          If aimed at myself….then please disprove the evidence presented above…..fact check please.

          • interested partyMEMBER

            Lol…triage……..please stay on task.
            fact check the above….and correct where wrong

            waiting……….

            It’s not that hard…google is your friend……..
            Fact check
            or look like fools………

            I gotta go
            Will check in the morning to see which genius amongst you all steps up to the plate

          • where you went wrong was where you suggested that Donald J Trump is going to continue the work of JFK

            The random and deliberate coincidences you posted may or may not be correct, I can’t be bothered checking because they’re completely irrelevant

            EDIT: actually you just said “it could be argued”
            Yeah ok, I guess.
            Technically correct is the best kind of correct
            Carry on then

          • interested partyMEMBER

            @Coming

            “The random and deliberate coincidences you posted may or may not be correct, I can’t be bothered checking because they’re completely irrelevant ”

            Say’s some random on the internet…..even admits to not bothering before acting as judge and jury. And then attacks because of what they think….without checking, of course.
            Try harder to fight this behaviour…you are better than that.

            ” EDIT: actually you just said “it could be argued”
            Yeah ok, I guess.
            Technically correct is the best kind of correct
            Carry on then ”

            Schadenfreude is delicious when warm and toasty, I am told…….but I will pass on the heaped platter.

            Kudos for actually stepping up and admitting the error. Your fellow travellers don’t seem to have the same gravitas. Some are naturally born weaker than others. Oh, and by the way……the facts are correct in the original post……..curious, isn’t it? You should check.

  28. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/10/19/trade-wars-inevitable-us-china-economic-imbalances/

    Michael Pettis

    Even as U.S. President Donald Trump and Chinese President Xi Jinping announce and then cancel tariffs in a seemingly endless back-and-forth, it is a mistake to view the ongoing trade dispute as simply a spat between the two. It is not a Trump-Xi fight or even mainly a U.S.-China one.

    In fact, when it comes to creating global trade imbalances, China is not the only—or even the worst—offender. Its current account surplus is no longer the world’s largest; the most recent data suggests China’s annualized surplus stands at about $130 billion, significantly smaller than Japan’s (roughly $180 billion) and Germany’s (roughly $280 billion).

    The real problem is that, over the past two decades, it has become increasingly difficult for the world to fix its massive trade imbalances; the very mechanisms that created them also make them harder to absorb. That is because trade surpluses and deficits are mainly the result of domestic savings surpluses and deficits, which are themselves a result of domestic income inequality. Until such inequality is substantially reversed, high-saving countries will continue to use trade as a way to pass the effects of their distortions onto other nations, such as the United States. This makes global trade conflict nearly inevitable—regardless of who sits in the Oval Office. For the United States, the only way out may be reconsidering how willing it is to absorb everyone else’s excesses.