Indo pulls military as Textor rules Abbott

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From the SMH:

Australia’s asylum-seeker measures in Indonesia have been thrown into disarray with Jakarta pulling the plug on all military co-operation in retaliation for the Abbott government’s refusal to explain the phone tapping of Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono.

Relations between Canberra and Jakarta have descended to their lowest level since the East Timor crisis as the Indonesian President ordered his country’s troops to stop joint exercises with Australians in Darwin, and the navy to halt any joint patrols to combat people smuggling.

“How can we do all this if we are not sure that there is no tapping of our military, which is working for the interests of the two countries?” Dr Yudhoyono said.

The sudden deterioration in ties sent the Abbott government into crisis talks, with Prime Minister Tony Abbott requesting time to address the House of Representatives at short notice to emphasise his respect for the relationship and his desire to see it repaired.

…”The President indicated that he would shortly be writing to me. I would like to reassure the House that I will be responding to the President’s letter swiftly, fully and courteously. As always, I am absolutely committed to building the closest possible relationship with Indonesia, because that is overwhelmingly in the interests of both our countries.”

The first was to wait for “an explanation and for Australia to take responsibility”.

The second was: “A number of agendas for cooperation will be re-examined: the exchange of information, intelligence and training between the Republic of Indonesia and Australia, and the issue of people smuggling”.

The third was to demand a “Necessary protocol, or code of ethics, and guiding principles relating to cooperation in various fields to sustain the relationship the two countries”.

Oh dear.

And you can add Textorgate to that:

textor-porno-tweet-620x349

As the government sought to limit damage from the phone-tapping affair, a Liberal Party senior adviser issued a series of racially-loaded remarks about top Indonesian government figures, which have been reported prominently in the Indonesian press.

The Liberal Party pollster, who is a close counsel to Prime Minister Tony Abbott, made the front page of one of Indonesia’s most prominent media outlets, the Indonesian-language Kompas newspaper for his series of abusive comments, with one likening Indonesian Foreign Affairs Minister Marty Natalegawa to a ”1970s Pilipino [sic] porn star”.

…The opposition foreign affairs spokeswoman, Tanya Plibersek, called for Mr Abbott to distance himself and the government from the Textor remarks.

”These comments are disgraceful,” she said. ”The Prime Minister must disassociate himself, the Liberal Party, and the Australian government from them immediately and unequivocally.”

Former Liberal Prime Minister Malcolm Fraser also weighed in on Twitter, demanding Mr Textor be sacked as the Liberal pollster.

Mr Textor has been described as one of the most influential people in Australia. He has himself advocated the use of Twitter by prospective employers as a way of gauging a person’s true character.

Well, it’s efficient. Might as well cut out the Prime Minister and let the faceless men govern directly.

Comments

  1. Can’t…stop…laughing at the man who is apparently incapable of apologising.

    On a side note, I wonder if Credlin has called Textor in for a chat. I’m so glad the adults are back in charge these days.

    http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/mark-textor-stokes-fire-with-indonesian-foreign-minister-porn-star-gibe-sack-him-says-malcolm-fraser-20131120-2xvy5.html

    In the comment on Twitter, since deleted by the self-styled digital shock-jock, Mr Textor attacked the Indonesian Foreign Minister: ”Apology demanded from Australia by a bloke who looks like a 1970s Pilipino [sic] porn star and has ethics to match,” he tweeted, along with the hashtag ”#Fairfax demands appeasement”.

  2. “How can we do all this if we are not sure that there is no tapping of our military?”

    Yudhoyono should be under no illusions that there always has been, and always will be, tapping of their military. Just as they are eavesdropping on our military all the time.

    It hasn’t got in the way of cooperation in the past, nor should it in the future. A strong relationship thrives on no surprises. I’m sure Indonesia’s leaders appreciate this.

    Yudhoyono’s statement and the actions taken seem to be sabre rattling to placate strong nationalist sentiment at home. It will blow over.

    • General Disarray

      It this situation was just about spying we wouldn’t be seeing this reaction from the Indonesians. Everything got out of hand when Tony slapped them in the face with the “Australia should not be expected to apologise…” speech to parliament. Everything after that has been retaliation for that insult.

      Abbott can wear this like a crown of thorns… Sorry couldn’t resist 🙂

      • “Everything after that has been retaliation for that insult.”

        And the original affront to SBY’s dignity and privacy. But I think it’s notable that Yudhoyono is not now demanding an apology, but an official explanation, plus new protocols and codes of conduct governing intelligence and other matters. This is a positive step and can form the basis for constructive negotiation. Abbott may yet come out of this with a restored relationship with Indonesia that is on a firmer long-term footing. I think this is what SBY wants, and it is certainly in our interest.

        • Yeah right. Abbott will be lucky to come out of this with any relationship with Indonesia after a senior Liberal says this:

          In the comment on Twitter, since deleted by the self-styled digital shock-jock, Mr Textor attacked the Indonesian Foreign Minister: ”Apology demanded from Australia by a bloke who looks like a 1970s Pilipino [sic] porn star and has ethics to match,” he tweeted, along with the hashtag ”#Fairfax demands appeasement”.

          • Well after trying three times it seems I can’t quote Mark Textor. Too profane for MB’s comment filter it seems.

          • Anyway in response to Alex Hayworth’s comment: Abbott will be luck to come out of this with any relationship with Indonesia after Textor’s tweet.

        • General Disarray

          The real explanation for tapping the Yudhoyono’s phones is likely to be far more insulting than anything we have said so far. Let’s hope the official explanation is a rather flattering piece of fiction.

        • Our top diplomat Julie Bishop should be able to turn this into a positive for both nations (sarc).

    • ‘Stop the boat’ is not popular in Indonesia, and provides little benefit for the Indonesian government, and Abbott’s carelessness with words have gave them a chance to back out.

      Relationship between countries are defined by national interest, not ‘friendship’. Listening to Abbott rambling on how Indonesia is our ‘best friend’ but then say “Australia won’t apologize” have me shaking my head. This is what he should have said : “We don’t comment on intelligence matters”, followed by “we will discuss with the Indonesians how best to resolve the matter”, and stop there. Saying more just makes the matter worse.

      It’s important to consider what the Indonesian press are saying.

      http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/opinion/the-thinker-betrayed-by-a-friend/

      Abbott’s stance is creating political problems for Yudhoyono.

    • Alex,

      Yudhoyono should be under no illusions that there always has been, and always will be, tapping of their military. Just as they are eavesdropping on our military all the time.

      That may well be the case.

      But has it always been normal for us to be listening in to the private phone conversations of national leaders and their wives?

      It seems to me that this is the bit that has really stuck in the Indonesians’ craw.

      I think there is a bit more than “…strong nationalist sentiment.” at work here.

      In Asia, it’s referred to as “losing face”….something taken very seriously over there.

      Something of which we should be very mindful if we wish to maintain friendly relations with Asian nations, like it or not.

      • See my post above. I agree that is one of the key considerations. SBY is a man of dignity and wants a proper explanation. But I think he also wants friendly relations with Australia, long term. Ways will be found to smooth things over.

        • http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-18/indonesia-angered-by-revelations-australia-spied-on-sby/5100264

          Read the allegations – in the scheme of international relations this is small cheese and SBY understands this. However this situation has been inflamed by the relentless pursuit of Abbott by the Oz media and some politically opportunistic squeezing by SBY.

          Senior US diplomatic officials, a former Australian ambassador to Indonesia, Bill Shorten and even Richo agree Abbott should not break with protocol by confirming or denying and certainly not apologising.

          The rabid strain of Australian media refuse to accept this.

          • After the hiding the media gave the previous government, its taken them a while to finally call this govt out on the bs they are spinning.

          • “The rabid strain of Australian media refuse to accept this.”

            And when did this style of rabid media journalism really get going 3D? How long before you just accept it was the right sided media that set the blueprint for the media future with its relentless 3 year campaign after the previous election? The Government of the day must now learn to live with dynamite exploding in their face every time they think they are comfortable.

            I’m sure the media has more stored away ready to go with. It gets viewers to their pages after all and that’s all that matters to them. Even if and especially so in some eyes it destabilises our Government.

            I do hope that Labor pursue the Immigration Minister if he can be bothered turning up in QT today about whether the policies will still work in light of this. All the while, supporting TA in trying to dig himself out of the hole he has dug. It’s highly hypocritical to do this but it’s the blueprint the previous opposition set and seems to me an opportunity too good to pass up.

      • So maybe what we have here in part is a clash of cultures:

        – Honest Tony: Everybody gathers intelligence, countries and INCLUDING the corporations and non government organisations

        has caused

        – SBY to lose face: One of the most important facets of Indonesian culture

        It shouldn’t be too hard to work out what

        Honest Tony + SBY to lose face =

        Surely commonsense can prevail. Or maybe it won’t, this is a commodity that appears to be in very, very short supply in the world at the moment.

        The other factor in all this is that many countries in the developing world and the Global Corporations/Non Government Bodies would like to stop 5 eyes collecting intelligence. Of course this won’t stop the Global Corporations/Non Government Bodies collecting information (the capacity of which I believe far exceeds that of the five eyes) for use to their ends.

      • Nunatak,

        You are on the money.

        This was not only spying but spying on the private phones of the leaders of an ally.

        That is not normal behaviour by a country that prides itself on the rule of law and accepted codes of conduct between states.

        For sure the leader of the west the US has been debasing those standards relentlessly in recent times but since when do base our conduct on the lowest common denominator.

        Over the last few days these threads have been full of ‘every one does and the Indonesians are being precious’, and that was the tone of the govts initial response. There was a similiar tone some time ago by some commenters about corruption in the 3rd world and doing business.

        Tapping these phones was not normal, was disgraceful behaviour and a full apology was warranted immediately.

        Do we really want to be sending the message that Australia welcomes spies entering our country and trying their luck fiddling with Malcolm’s nodes?

        Intelligence gathering is always a part of diplomacy – reading crop reports, papers and nice chats with helpful friends like Mr Arbib and business leaders etc.

        Breaking laws, tapping leaders phones is espionage and it is deadly serious and not normal.

        Spies who get caught are treated as criminals for a reason.

        • “This was not only spying but spying on the private phones of the leaders of an ally.That is not normal behaviour by a country that prides itself on the rule of law and accepted codes of conduct between states.”

          I disagree.

          Spying and intelligence gathering has always been part of the “behaviour by a country that prides itself on the rule of law and accepted codes of conduct between states”.

          A point that is being missed here, is that spying and intelligence gathering can actually help build trust. Another commodity (besides common sense) that is sorely lacking today.

          You can argue about norms of behaviour but maybe when the spying in question occurred were not normal times. Here is an article from a reliable news source that Honest Tony will soon be shutting down.

          http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-18/canberra-jakarta-and-the-digital-great-game/5100502

        • Pfh007, regardless of the rights or wrongs of tapping the phones of other nations’ leaders, it happened under Labor. This post and subsequent discussion is about the response that should be made now.

          And I agree with notsofast, it is commonplace. The Indonesians have admitted having done it in the past and are probably doing it now. If a leader wants a truly private conversation, he/she doesn’t conduct it on a mobile phone.

          Of course this means that 99% of what is eavesdropped on is commonplace personal stuff, like what time SBY will be home and what he would like for dinner. The security services ignore all that. They only eavesdrop on the off chance that some small snippet of intelligence might result. A very small piece of a very big picture.

          • “..This post and subsequent discussion is about the response that should be made now…”

            I agree, the only issue is that the initial response was ill-thought and cavalier and likely occurred because the seriousness of the matters disclosed were not appreciated or there was a genuine lack of concern about the Indonesian reaction.

            The various comments trying to downplay the seriousness of bugging phones is the kind of thinking that lead to the inappropriate response.

            Bugging or even trying to bug SBY’s phone is a huge deal and not just the usual fun and frolics of the spook community.

            Certainly the bugging was under labour but the current govt is the one that needed to do the grovelling and they did not.

            Mr Abbott has been very poorly advised and that is a concern as there seems to be poor advice being given to other ministers as well (eg Hockey).

            The country needs this govt to perform having regard to the performance of the last govt and the challenges the country will face over the next few years.

            Making excuses does not help – the LNP govt can easily fix the problems but they need to accept that there are problems first.

          • Happy to agree to disagree on most of that. Agree it could have been better handled in the first place.

            Both countries have a conflict between the needs of domestic politics and international diplomacy.

        • The leaked documents appear to confirm that during a nine day period in 2009 SBYs phone was tracked in terms of numbers called and the one attempt to ‘bug’ a call failed as call was of insufficient duration. Attempts were made to monitor call records of SBYs wife and other senior people.

          That’s it!!!

          • Like I said yesterday if it came to light that Labor had tracked and attempted to ‘bug’ the phones of the CEO of BHPBilliton or Rio Tinto you’d be apoplectic, not shrugging your shoulders…

          • That’s it!!!

            Yes – I appreciate that you do not consider the espionage activities to be serious.

            On that we will just have to agree to differ.

            What we probably do agree on is that this is not a major long term problem (provided they start taking it seriously) for the government or proof that the LNP are not fit for govt etc.

    • dumb_non_economist

      GD,

      I seriously doubt it’s anywhere near a level playing field when it comes to capability.

    • I think Bishop is his true idol but she’s been conspicuously absent recently.

      Maybe she’s been too busy ironing (please read the link before flaming me)?

      http://www.news.com.au/national/foreign-minister-julie-bishop-is-australias-own-thrifty-iron-lady/story-fncynjr2-1226761713569

      Foreign Minister Julie Bishop is Australia’s own thrifty Iron Lady

      AUSTRALIA has its own “Iron Lady” in Foreign Minister Julie Bishop, whose No.1 demand when travelling abroad is an iron and ironing board.

      The domestic request, which flies in the face of Prime Minister Tony Abbott’s infamous 2010 remarks suggesting ironing was the domain of housewives, tops a list of Ms Bishop’s personal travel preferences released to the Herald Sun under freedom of information laws.

      • Maybe she’s been too busy ironing (please read the link before flaming me)?

        Not sure of your purpose there AB. Are we mocking the woman for having some down to earth realistic attitudes to life?

        • Not sure of your purpose there AB. Are we mocking the woman for having some down to earth realistic attitudes to life?

          C’mon now, Flawse.

          You don’t mean like the right-wingnuts had a field day referring to Julia Gillard as a “knitwit” after she appeared in a womens magazine knitting, do you?

          Time to get a hold of some perspective again, Flawse.

          Disclaimer: Julia Gillard is not, never has been, nor never will be my Hero (or Heroine, if you’re that fussed about the use of gender).

        • “Not sure of your purpose there AB. Are we mocking the woman for having some down to earth realistic attitudes to life?”

          Gees Flawse, I think you need to relax a bit more these days! It was more a convenient excuse to post an example of the [email protected] that News publishes (and yes, somehow I ended up reading it).

          I can promise you that I do plenty of ironing myself but I prefer to try the “hang the clothes in the steamy bathroom” trick first when I’m staying in a hotel.

          • Mining BoganMEMBER

            Oh, but I have. Unfortunately the folk madly defending our Tony won’t acknowledge any criticism.

            This isn’t about spying. This is about the attitude of Abbott, Morrison, Bishop and the language they have used over the last couple of years. The Indonesians warned them about telling lies time and time again. Did they listen? Not a chance.

            The phone tapping is the trigger, not the cause.

      • Frankly Lorax after having had so many of my comments deleted or edited to remove context (primarily in discussion with Migtronix and yourself) yesterday evening what’s the point if the same is to happen again today?

        • Oh come on, give it a shot! This must be the ultimate challenge for a master spinmeister such as yourself.

          • I have to admit Lorax that if I was going to hire anyone to be a lobbyist on my behalf it would be 3d1k!!!

            He really goes in to bat, takes all kind of slippery spinners and fast-balls very well I must say…

            It must surely be a labour of love not a labour of neccessity

  3. A flood of dangerous leaky boats at the worst time of the year.

    I find this hard to believe that the people controlling this whole $%@#&*%! charade can’t see the eventual outcome.

    Is this orchestrated???

  4. This is a whole new age of idiocracy where who gets in government is decided by a whole new level of lameness.

    “Never was so much owed by so many to so few”

    People who have a clue are the Battle of Britain pilots.

  5. “Is this orchestrated???”

    Yes. It´s called reality TV. It is the last untapped market for this noughties entertainment form, where the populace elects underwhelming buffoons who participate in a global contest to claim the title of dumbest head of state. With Berlusconi gone I fear we may have overshot the mark. But heck, gold is ours for sure.

  6. FFS! Does this site now exist for the single purpose of attacking Abbott? It now ignores all facts and sensible comment on this is at close to zero level.
    There is not a single comment on
    1.This did happen under your heores Gillard/Rudd
    2. The media responsible, especially the ABC, sat on the informatoion in regard to this until the election was over just so they could dump it on the Liberals. Such malfeasance is OK as long as it is done in the intersts of the loony Left?
    3. Even Labor is following the same di[plomatic line as Abbott for good reason.
    4. Abbott, in his statements, is demonsrably closely following advice being given him by his Indo experts.
    It’s possible their approach is wrong but for the moment I’ll go along with those who, as a result of speaking the language and everyday analysing communications around Indonesia, know something of the political/cultural issues involved. I prefer their opinion over the shallow idiotic clatter that now seems to be the specialty od Macrobusiness

    Lastly would someone please point, rationally, to anything said by 3d1k on this issue that was not part of a thoughtful process.

    • Stop attacking the man, Flawse. Abbott’ has stuffed this up and pointing that out is not bias.

      Nobody is denying it happened under another government nor that questions might not asked about the ABC.

      We spent the last three years caning Labor when it was appropriate. Right now Abbott is not in control of this.

      • Again BS! Attacking what man? What man? I’ve listed four points. Why don’t you attack those p;oints instead of this man!!!!
        Further that’s really good considering the irrational, and obscene, attacks that occur on this site on the person 3d1k!

        You don’t deny it happened under ‘another government’ (love your phraseology! FFS it happened under the Rudd/GillardLabor Government and you can’t even SAY it!) but you have not criticised that lot in any way. (I’d bet they knew stuff all about it so I’d not really blame them, either myself. Something else is going on here and that’s the point) Your total focus is on portraying ABBOtt as stuffing it up. In trying to do so you ignore every piece of evidence that is lying around that Abbott is following a pretty closely scripted play. Of course that doesn’t matter when we can have this brainless anti-Abbott constant tirade.

        As to the ABC please show where you have questioned the activities of the ABC which are a total disgrace.

        You caning Labor? Baloney! You have spent the whole time trying to ridicule Abbott. Gillard, with all her nonsense, was your constant hero.

        • With you on this Flawse, the bias of individuals in the comments may by tedious but fair enough, but I am starting to feel that it reflects the overall tenure of Macrobusiness.

          Where have most of the original bloggers gone, and why?

        • dumb_non_economist

          flawse,

          Baloney is what you have just written. hnh, Mav, Lorax, Gunna and plenty of others have slammed the previous gov, but your idol has not had a bad word to say about Abbott, EVER, and NEVER will.

          The comment I made about the Mad Monk and priesthood still holds true just as I said he’s always supported that wanker Bishop (Pell) over church victims of pedophillia, which again in did in public just recently.

          BTW, are you suggesting that Howard wasn’t spying on them? Bullshit, the “apparatus” has been spying regardless of who’s been in power. That’s the simple reason why the opposition has sided with Abbott as well has most of the dickhead public would go ape-shit if Shorten suggested saying sorry.

          IMO, it was a fcuking dumb idea to spy THAT far up the food chain, especially with his wife. Would what they would be likely to find be worth the damage likely to ensue? I wouldn’t have thought so.

    • One word: Textor. That has blown up everything.

      1. I have mentioned this several times, and Abbott really should have taken advantage of this.
      2. You have no evidence for this, and besides the Murdoch media sat on information damaging to Rudd/Gillard and released it at times to inflict maximum damage. Deal with it.
      3. No-one on the Labor side has said anything near as damaging as Textor.
      4. How do you know this? I reckon he’s trying to appear strong to the Australian electorate by not apologising.

      • OPh BS I wrote the evidence yesterday in a discussion with ff about what might or might not be happening.
        OI was happy to admit I’m out of my depth on this. Who isn’t? Yet you all carry on here, with your screeching about Abbott, as instant experts on everything to do with diplomacy and security.

        Macrobusiness is losing its point. That’s the real problem here.

    • Is Textor one of his “Indo experts”?

      Irrespective of everything else, Abbott’s response should have been to repeat the mantra:
      “We don’t comment on intelligence matters.”

      He could do “We’ll stop the boats”, so he should have been able to do this.

      • Its gone way past the point where he can just repeat “We don’t comment on intelligence matters”. Maybe he could have done that a week ago, but not now.

    • Lastly would someone please point, rationally, to anything said by 3d1k on this issue that was not part of a thoughtful process.

      Ok, here’s a start. 3d1k and his fellow wingnuts could once in their lives admit that Abbott is wrong. He’s handled this very badly, and its been compounded massively by Textor. He needs to get on the phone pronto to SBY and offer a grovelling apology.

      Instead Abbott is behaving like some Antipodean Putin, always wanting to appear strong, and never caving to anything. That’s not how diplomacy works, especially when you need them much more than they need you.

      I quote Textor: “He has the ethics to match”. Extraordinary!

      • I asked you to show me how 3d1k had posted anything that was not thoughtful on this topic. You come back to me with your stupid BS including a whole lot of stuff about Textor and rant on from there.
        Love the use of the presumption of gender!

      • “Instead Abbott is behaving like some Antipodean Putin.”

        Well this should not be unexpected by Indonesia.

        Half of Indonesia (along with half the world) was laughing when alpha males Abbott and Putin were accidentally(???) sat next to each other at the recent APEC summit.

        Even I felt the chill in the room from many thousands of kms away.

    • Flawse,

      Suggest you read this:

      http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/abc-chief-mark-scott-defends-indonesia-spying-revelations-20131119-2xsu5.html#ixzz2l4XQ0y6Z

      and then perhaps you could provide the link(s) that support your contention.

      Gillard/Rudd heroes? I don’t think you’ve been reading the articles and/or comments on this site very carefully. Or perhaps you are simply seeing that which you wish to see.

      I’m bemused that you place so much faith in the governments’ “Indo experts”.

      Given your frequent and repeated attacks on the competence of the governments “financial experts”, you suddenly seem to have discovered a new faith in the backroom boys who brief government.
      I take it you feel that the “Indo experts” are far more clever than the “financial experts” that you so frequently berate?

      As to your last point – I would not deny that most of 3D1K’s utterances are part of a thoughtful process – it’s the nature and purpose of the process and the thoughts behind it that concern most.

      Oh, and as far as “shallow idiotic clatter” is concerned….I can only suggest that you have a good, long hard think about what you just said.

      • Flawse:

        It appears your point 2 is false:

        Defence Signals Directorate slides dated November 2009 revealed a series of high-level intelligence targets in Indonesia, including President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono and his wife.

        Mr Scott said the ABC received the documents “a matter of days before broadcast”, so it was not a matter of sitting of the information.

        He understood the number of documents leaked to The Guardian by Mr Snowden were massive and took a long time to examine.

        Mr Scott said he believed Guardian Australia “only had access to this material 24 hours before the ABC was alerted to it”.

        • OK That’s one piece and a statement I accept for the moment. I note he uses the words ‘believe’ Let’s see what else comes out!

      • Nun re Indo experts. As I’ve said it may ber that the ‘experts’ MIGHT have this wrong. I just said that for the moment I’d wait and I have much more faith in them than the shrill anti-Abbott crusadfe being conducted here and on ABC/SMH.

        Please read what i wrote on this topic yesterday.

        I wrote four points. All I’ve had in return, except for the contribution re Mr Scott and the ABC and your own reasonable comment, is a personal attack. Fucking terrific!

      • Scott fails to explain why it was in the public interest. We have no concrete timeline of the flow of information but do know the Guardian received the docs mid year. We do not not why it was a collaborative effort between the ABC/The G. We do not know which journalists conspired with which on the subject. We do not know how long any journalist had access to the information prior to release.

        Scott may have only been informed 24 hours earlier but after seeing the behind the scenes activities of journalists (the UK spying scandal) to confect stories and confound the truth I know am most amused of your conviction that here we immune from such manipulation.

        • When it comes to “confected” stories, this posting must win some sort of a prize.

          Well done, 3D1K – obfuscation and irrelevancy at its finest.

          • That’s a bit like saying Andrew Bolt agrees with Piers Akerman.

            Enough with the ABC/Guardian conspiracy theories. Lets see you spin Textor’s comments.

          • I enjoyed Among the Barbarians and The Electronic Whorehouse so feel very comfortable having Sheehan on side – he has also critiqued neocon thinking so is not as aligned as you assume.

            As for Textor – I will not defend stupidity. And God know Twits on Twitter are regular offenders.

          • “That’s a bit like saying Andrew Bolt agrees with Piers Akerman.”

            Yes, I think that may have been why he put the :-).

          • Well we know (thanks to AB) that Scott doesn’t necessarily agree with Scott so Ackerman and Bolt agreeing might not be so obvious ha ha

          • As for Textor – I will not defend stupidity.

            A concession! A concession! Finally a concession!

            This from someone who is supposed to be one of the smartest operators in Australia. I reckon its a touch of hubris.

          • ….so feel very comfortable having Sheehan on side..

            That, I imagine, would be when he said:

            “Again, Abbott chose the path of insult:….”

            Or:

            “If Abbott digs in over an outdated, outflanked matter of principle, his relationship with Indonesia will be in tatters, and his credibility in foreign affairs compromised. It’s his choice.”

            Sheehan goes on to develop his conspiracy theory involving the ABC and “…the English import The Guardian Australia”.

            Really?
            “The English Import”? How does that pejorative term “feel comfortable” with one who has rammed down our collective throats the multitudinous benefits of foreign investment? Or is that valid only for mining companies?
            We then get, from Sheehan:

            “ABC managing director Mark Scott had a clear choice. It was self-evident that revealing these phone taps would poison the relationship with Indonesia, damage Australia’s intelligence-gathering, humiliate President Yudhoyono, compromise Australian security arrangements, and ripple out to Australia’s education market in Indonesia.
            He decided to go all-in with The Guardian. “

            Presumably the choice to which he alludes is either “go all-in with The Guardian”, or “say nothing”?

            Just wonder how you “feel comfortable” with that given the endless lectures you delivered on freedom of the Press a few months back when Gina Rinehart bought into the game?

            Perhaps that freedom only applies to that part of the Press owned by media moguls or mining magnates.

            Or perhaps you are just being a bloody hypocrite, adopting whichever position suits your agenda.

        • Awesome stuff. Well done old chap.

          But inventing more ABC/Guardian conspiracy theories is child’s play for you. I’d really like to see you have a crack at spinning Textor.

        • We do not know which journalists conspired with which on the subject.

          Nice play of words there..

          We do not even know IF there was a conspiracy!! 3d1k’s conspiracy theory imagination cart is running before the horse!

    • General Disarray

      Get your hand off it.

      1. No shit. What has the got to do with how the matter has been handled?

      2. Conspiracy theory from the loon pond with zero evidence and it has been denied by Mark Scott.

      3. The ALP also made a statement saying we shouldn’t apologise? I’m sorry if I missed that.

      4. Abbott is responsible for the statements he chooses to read in parliament.

      Lastly would someone please point, rationally, to anything said by 3d1k on this issue that was not part of a thoughtful process.

      It depends on what you consider a thoughtful process. I’m guessing anything you agree with qualifies and everything else is “shallow idiotic clatter”. Personally I would consider accusing the ABC of a plot to thwart Abbott’s “stop the boats” policy by sitting on a story until after the election qualifies as a thoughtful process – but also delusional and desperate.

      Once again, get your hand off it.

          • Again from you a contribution of nothing. Typical of your stupid BS. I made four points. Address them!
            But again that’s not your style. Just mouth off your stream of tripe.

          • I made four points. Address them!
            After watching you specifically ignore someone else’s responses to those points, instead presenting yet another straw man by quoting probably the only words they wrote that weren’t addressing your points, why would I bother ?

          • They haven’t been addressed…just the one by you Lorax…and that relies on a statement by Scott which still leaves a whole lot of questions that might be asked.
            Dr Smithy believe me the teh feeling is mutual. You have a closed small mind.

          • They haven’t been addressed…just the one by you Lorax…and that relies on a statement by Scott which still leaves a whole lot of questions that might be asked.
            Fair dinkum your persecution complex, bias and hyper-sensitivity to any criticism of the Coalition can get tiring.

            1.This did happen under your heores Gillard/Rudd
            I doubt there’s anyone here who thinks Gillard or Rudd are “heroes”.

            Further, the big fallout here is not from the spying itself, but from the absolutely horrendous job that’s been done of dealing with it. Which Government it occurred under is a fairly minor issue (in no small part because both would have done it).

            2. The media responsible, especially the ABC, sat on the informatoion in regard to this until the election was over just so they could dump it on the Liberals. Such malfeasance is OK as long as it is done in the intersts of the loony Left?
            This is just you exercising your conspiracy gland and parroting conservative paranoia.

            3. Even Labor is following the same di[plomatic line as Abbott for good reason.
            “Opposition Leader Bill Shorten called for a more conciliatory approach, suggesting Mr Abbott might copy US President Barack Obama, after similar allegations emerged of American phone hacking of German Chancellor Angela Merkel. Mr Obama assured her the US would halt any wiretaps.”

            4. Abbott, in his statements, is demonsrably closely following advice being given him by his Indo experts.
            Where is the publication of what his “experts” are advising him ? “He was reading a statement verbatim” is weak evidence of expert advice given the man has a long and glorious history of sticking his foot in his mouth when left to his own devices. Which is further reinforced by the fact the largest amount of damage has been caused by the statements made *before* he had someone else writing them for him.

            It’s possible their approach is wrong but for the moment I’ll go along with those who, as a result of speaking the language and everyday analysing communications around Indonesia, know something of the political/cultural issues involved. I prefer their opinion over the shallow idiotic clatter that now seems to be the specialty od Macrobusiness
            I find your faith the Government is doing the right thing based on “expert advice” breathtakingly hypocritical.

          • You don’t bother actually reading ort following the argument do you?
            You’re far too high and mighty for such minor details!

          • You don’t bother actually reading ort following the argument do you?
            You’re far too high and mighty for such minor details!

            Thanks for proving my point.

    • 4. Abbott, in his statements, is demonsrably closely following advice being given him by his Indo experts.

      Appeal to Authority.

      The government listening to RBA and Treasury is also getting information from “experts” yet you are happy to bash their advice.

      • I think flawse’s point there is blame the advisors not Abbott until more evidence comes to light (I disagree incidentally, a strong leader doesn’t parrot “advice” verbatim, and I suspect the ‘experts’ these days are all neo-cons)

        • mig…the difference between me and pretty much everyone else here is that I’m not blaming anybody.
          I DO NOT HAVE hte level of knowledge necessary to allocate blame or judgement. Oviously everyone else here has inside knowledge on all this and are able to allocate all the blame for the whole mess onto Abbott despite the FACT that he did not cause the problem in the first place and would appear to have been following advice since…given that he did not immediately load the whole blame onto Labor.
          But what the hell would I know? I know not and know that i know not. The rest here know not and know not that they know not which qualifies them well for the particular category in which such people congregate. Personal insults and obscenity obviously count more around MB these days than reason.

          mig…the young bloke I knew had his L plates as I said. That was some 4 or 5 years ago. Toi get those L plates he had a uni degree with specialty in Indo, went and lived there for 12 months, had contacts all over the place there. He spent all day every day monitoring Indo stuff and analysing it. This does not give him wisdom but i’d not like to take him, on in a debate about Indo.

          It wouldn’t bother most here. They’d win by yelling abuse.

          • You know, becoming a lightning rod / sandbag when the time calls for one is one of the most important jobs of a PM.

            It is not pleasant to be one for sure, but that is why we pay him handsomely.

          • Actually flawse I blame just about all concerned, especially Labor acting as US/Obama puppets not doubt (OK speculation I suppose but I know enough history to have suspicions aroused — plus Hitlery Clinton was doing the rounds about then – 09), and the media are clearly doing a beat up.

            Yes I’m opinionated but as I always say to government if you don’t want speculation don’t be so goddam secretive – especially when I’m paying for it. Do I think its good use of my taxes to spy on SBY and his ilk? Heck no!

    • “4. Abbott, in his statements, is demonsrably closely following advice being given him by his Indo experts.”

      It was his initial statements, which were not scripted for him, that caused the problem.

      • , which were not scripted for him,

        Pleased you know exactly what advice was actually given to him. You’ve also got inside info as to what this is all about? So….the easy politicall attractive thing for him to do was just plainly blame Labor and say sorry but it was them not us. You’ll know exactly, not speculation, as to why he did not do that?

    • “Does this site now exist for the single purpose of attacking Abbott?”
      Nope. Just commentary on and entire government falling on their own sword. Repeatedly. BTW, the previous lot was not much better, but when your pitch hinges on “The adults are back”, you’ve kinda set yourself up.

    • Flawes, i’ll give your four points a try.

      1/ It now doesn’t matter what happened or when or why. They have taken offense at Abbotts response: even if crafted by our Indo. experts; deep personal offense – loss of face type offense PUBLICALLY. Only contrition will now appease them. 230 million people; or that proportion with access to local ( Indo. ) media;. have taken offense. My contacts indicate that the view the words and particularly the tone as some white overlord telling them what they can and can’t be offended by.

      2/ What is your proof that the ABC had isolated the documents relevant to this issue from all the other documents released at the time , and sat on it.

      3/

  7. Not defending Textor. Tweet was silly & juvinile but I will note news organisations need to be carefull when generating news by taking one tweet in isolation, when it was likely part of a series of tweets by the tweeter.

    This applies to anyone ‘tweeting’. Twitter and the 140 character limit is unforgiving. If your’re a Politician/Celebrity best not to tweet, as news outlets get more then 140 characters to dissect and rip your tweet apart.

    • Burning Textor might be the head on a pike that Abbotts needs to de-escalate the situation. By burning, I mean firing and then re-hiring when it has all blown over.

  8. Textor should be subject to strict discipline.
    He should be banned from being a twitterer, and forced to txt his messages.
    If he txts any bad things about pawn (sic) again. Then he should be further restricted to using cardboard and a texta.

    • Claw
      Anyone who puts anything on twitter, other than what they had for lunch and even that’s dangerous, anywhere anytime really has no place in Govt.
      It’s a medium well named…twit…twitter