An influx of bros

Following on from the recent release of ABS Data on the “Australian Bogan Exodus“, here’s an article from NZ’s leading financial news and opinion blog, that got me thinking:

The exodus of people from New Zealand to live permanently or long-term in Australia continued in February, with net departures across the ditch hitting a new annual record of 39,112, figures released by Statistics New Zealand show.

A total 53,003 departures to Australia in the year to February 2012 – itself a record high – was offest by 13,891 arrivals of people coming back to New Zealand, Stats NZ said. In both directions most migrants were New Zealand citizens.

Meanwhile, New Zealand’s seasonally adjusted net loss of migrants continued in February 2012, when departures exceeded arrivals by 400 people. Net losses have been recorded in 11 of the 12 months since the February 2011 earthquake in Christchurch, Stats NZ said.

Although a lot of the recent data can be contributed to the Christchurch earthquakes, this is a secular trend driven by the divergence in after-tax disposable incomes or purchasing power between our two nations. This trend began in the 1980’s when NZ adopted some below-par economic policy whilst Australia pressed ahead with significant productivity reform. This chart from Matt Cowgill (admittedly this is older data) on GDP per capita is illustrative:

This most recent chart from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (RBNZ) shows that real GDP (gross domestic product) growth rates aren’t that different at first glance, except when it mattered the most, as Chinese stimulus and Mining Boom Mk 2 took Australia off the recession path during the throes of the GFC:

Playing catch up has been difficult this chart from Matt Cowgill again, showing the “growth gap” between our two countries:

Beyond the macro stats, the real reason behind the continued exodus lies with the huge difference in disposable incomes. The average full time equivalent weekly wage in 2011 for New Zealand was $NZ1017 or just over $AUD791 a week. Compare that to the $AUD1330 paid to the average full time equivalent position in Australia and its clear why the “bros” are coming here.


Latest posts by Chris Becker (see all)


  1. So apparently NZ is as expensive as Oz? Higher wages do not really help if cost of living is that much higher.

    According to this website they may be in for a bit of a shock (as was I, which will ultimately lead to our return to Europe).

    • that is my follow up post Anon – apart from Auckland due to its housing bubble (and other high housing around the North and South island), I want to examine the cost of living differences. I anecdotally can see that its cheaper living in NZ, but the wage differential is huge.

    • When I lived in NZ so much of my wage was taken up in rent. Then, when Auckland turned into the university capital of the South Pacific rents sky rocketed as wealthy students pored in. Most can’t compete with the big money that foreign families are willing to pay for their children to study in NZ. Many of the apartments in apartment buildings in NZ are also not covered by any type of protection law for tenants, not like houses are. So its either put up and shut up or get out. The other problem is the labor market, it was an already small market to start with, but much has been lost to cheap labor so that has created a lot of downward preasure or wages, coupled with mass foreign investment into real estate and its not much of a life for many.

    • Great website !

      comapraison Australia France :

      Consumer Prices in france are 20.27% lower than in Australia

      Consumer Prices Including Rent in france are 24.51% lower than in Australia

      Rent Prices in france are 39.99% lower than in Australia

      Restaurant Prices in france are 12.21% lower than in Australia

      Groceries Prices in france are 25.49% lower than in Australia

      Local Purchasing Power in france is 16.11% lower than in Australia


      • Can’t take the credit for it. Mav pointed that one out earlier. 🙂

        It’s great (and shocking)

        • Just wondering why people keep calling this dump “the lucky country”
          Ignorance is bliss obviously!

          • Sorry Rusty there are no more replay buttons available….
            The origin of the phrase was negative but I’m quite sure that has been lost somehow intentionally. The red necks are still trowing that sentence in my face. Hopefully not for long now!

  2. I’m presently working in a welfare service that assists people to find housing in Melbourne (I do locum work in the welfare field).

    I’ve had a number of queries from Kiwis in the last month who have decided to pick up and move to Melbourne with no plans, no money, no place to live and no income to support themselves with. They then are astonished to find that there’s simply no housing available of any sort available in Melbourne (if you don’t have much money) and they must live in boarding houses or share accommodation or face living on the streets. It’s also a double whammy when they find out they are precluded from Centrelink or Medicare for the first two years they live here. One guy I spoke to the other day had moved his whole family here and had no idea that he couldn’t get the dole and he started to panic when I was talking to him on the phone when he realised that he also couldn’t access welfare services because he’s also not entitled to a health care card.

    Much as I want to feel sorry for these people, Melbourne is bursting at the seems and we can’t possibly continue to absorb people at the rate that we’ve been doing it at in the last ten years. Every morning I try catching the train to work and some mornings I can’t get on because there’s too many people… Rents are running away from people on ‘averaqe’ wages and I’ve spoken to lots of people recently who are working and yet can’t afford to pay rent.

    Our former Premier John Brumby was an advocate of a “big Melbourne” but you can bet with his income and resources he’s not having to compete with other people for sub-standard accommodation on a service industry wage.

    • I am from NZ, I didn’t know about those laws either, though I get good money in what I do. Many are not informed, it reminds me of living on a cattle farm when I was young, people just been herding by the wealthy as cheap labor from one place to another. I wonder if its not to keep the Australian property bubble going and keep wage pressure on workers by swamping the country with more people that is needed.

      John Keys (prim of NZ) idea to keep the country afloat is to import wealthy Asians into NZ. many locals live a life of poverty now, with no hope, many I guess see Australia as a place of hope. But for all the talk about jobs (mostly mining) it is just that. Mining does not want to train up people, it wants to import cheap labor from anywhere it can. Many from NZ will find life just as hard if not harder in Australia without a skill. I rented a room from a Chinese couple on longdale st, the girl told me that every Chinese restaurant she applied for work pays about $10 or less tax free under the table. And of course you will never see a white person working there as they know their rights. So for unskilled kiwi’s competing against that and unskilled Australians, they don’t stand much chance. they are better to stay in NZ.

    • It is similar in Darwin, where the cost of living (rents, mortgages, food, fuel e.t.c.) are the highest in the land. The growth bubble that you talk of has put such a great strain on the majority of income workers who are in the ‘Service’ industries and when the Government figures show that the average wage is now nearly 70K per person, you know something is amiss, because Managers of Coffee shops only get 35K in Melbourne – the figures have been skewed by public servants & the the mining wages…….but the mantra to keep it all going is grow, grow, grow! I’m not sure what the answer is though!

      • I lived in Darwin for a short time in the late 90’s (couldn’t stand the humidity I have to say!) and yeah, it was very expensive for an average worker on average wages given the much higher cost of everyday staples like groceries and electricity – I can’t imagine what it would be like now that housing has gone through the roof. Many people I know in service industries have to have two or three jobs just to survive here in Melbourne… can’t envisage what will happen to these people when the economy hits the wall…

  3. I am one of those NZ citizens that left. Born in NZ, not someone from overseas, got PR then left NZ. I work in IT security, and now work in IT security in Australia. Why did I leave, simple, first the exporting of manufacturing also meant that a lot of IT infrastructure started to disappear, if you think about it, every company that goes over seas takes with it computer network. Second, and this has got worse since I left, cheap foreign labor which is made up of students who go to visa factory universities and skilled migrant visa workers for the 3rd world killed the rights of us to bragin for higher pay rates.

    Simply put, they are desperate to get out of the 3rd world and will work for any rate they are offered. In NZ its even worse for unskilled workers, where foreign students especially often work below minimum rate.

    Net result is displacement of an entire generation of young local people. Oh, and that argument that many of them are lazy, all I can say is we created a some what easy life style for a better life, which is what we also wanted for our kids, so they didn’t have to struggle and could enjoy life, then in the mid 80’s the wealthy got their way, export manufacturing and bring in cheap labor to bypass the labor laws our parents and grandparents fort for so hard. Now, we turn around and call all these young kids lazy because they won’t work below minimum wage, or that most know that they will never afford a home on minimum wage or have a good life anyhow.

    So, I came to Australia, I work now in the banks, mining and sometimes government as a contractor in IT security in senior positions. But the funny thing is, I can’t even get PR here because contractors often only get a brief reference letter, a number of companies will only give verbal. ACS, Australian computer society, which is the org that assesses IT people for skilled immigration assessed me as diploma level. I am 41, a 3rd world student who goes to a visa university factory can get a degree, then apply for work undercutting because they will take any wage from a local Australian and get PR.

    PS, a bomb shell of sorts. Just about all IT degree’s in NZ and Oz are made up of industry certifications. For example, Charles Sturt and many other uni’s do master degree programs. Masters are 12 subjects, half of those can be industry certs such as Microsoft or Cisco. What the media has not clicked onto yet, or many locals is that all those certs you can pay and download the exact questions that are asked in the exams, a few examples, a Microsoft MCSE or MCITP, go to and this website covers just about all IT industry exams. Problem is this, some test centers are corrupt, the learn or lease answers which end up on these so called brain dump websites. Once you have cheated your industry certs you then just complete the other 6 subjects required through the uni and wa la, you have a Bogus master degree, which is why I just delete CV’s with degree’s and no experience, its because you can’t take a chance on a cv as you don’t know who has cheated and who is real.

    Anyhow, back to me 🙂 So, even coming to Australia I live a very uncertain life. I am highly paid which is the only thing that gives me certainty or at least options, well that is until the banks start to fail with their massive debt and shocking security exposure (opps)

    This is just one of many sectors this happens in, and now I see it happening in Australia. All those young people in trouble on ACA etc.. are lost youth with no hope, displaced by cheap foreign labor. What’s maybe worse in Australia is mining has started to kill every other industry, so the average person in Oz competes not just with what damage mining is doing but also the down force of cheap labor been imported and manufacturing exported. What a lot of people don’t see is also what problems cloud computing will bring, where large parts of infrastructure or applications are outsourced to a cloud service providers, which are often over seas, and the administration of it done from the 3rd world. SAD.

    The end result of this game is going to be what has been happening in the UK, Europe and other countries where wage rights have been taken away and work as been exported over seas. Don’t expect mining to help, in a global crash which is coming (check out the EU markets last night losing traction again) miners will get laid off, or, unless automation such as automated trains and trucks which is what Rio is doing bets the global crash. Now, you have a shit load of NZ people coming over, what I would like to know is how many are directly from China since NZ is more or less what I call a province of China now.

    I don’t discriminant, these are just facts. Cheap 3rd world labor, imported and exported through manufacturing has destroyed a lot of local’s chances in NZ and OZ for a better life. People with no skills are screwed to the max, will end up unemployed and social costs and violence will slowly but surly take over.

    Most low income low skilled Australians are now screwed, its sad but a fact of life. Displaced, never to have a second chance. Mining has been going for more than 10 years, still plenty of unskilled and unemployed labor that would like a chance to be trained, but no, mining companies are pushing gov for more skilled labor, I think gov just said they will let in another 135,000 skilled visa workers for mining, maybe that is also a convenient way to keep the property bubble propped up?

    Expect more NZder’s over here, which in turn will displace more Oz jobs, that I truly regret. Many of those NZder’s will be people who used the country for PR for a few years to get into Australia since NZ immigration is such a push over. I sort of look at NZ now as the asshole backdoor into the western world. Will one day the ALL Blacks be the ALL Chinese ?

    • +100. It is an inconvenient truth.

      ACS is just an industry lobby group that pretends to represent individual IT professionals as well. Their skill shortage list is a sham ( I was judged an IT manager during my assessment for PR :p ).

      After I moved here, though I am not exactly packing shelves in Coles or driving a taxi like most immigrant engineers end up doing, I doubt there is a real shortage of IT managers in Australia.

      • You are most likely right, the shortage is only because many who were permanent got screwed over, turned to contracting and got much better money, but most companies don’t want to pay contractor rates so they cry and bitch and moan to the government that they can’t find workers. I hold a CISSP, one of the highest security certs you can get, oh and when I did mine, it was a manual test, in a class where the testers came directly from the US for 1 or twice a year to test you, then you got an audit on your work history to ensure you had the experience.

        I am working more toward computer hacking, oh, sorry in the professional world we call it penetration testing. I wonder, what are all those pen testers/hackers going to do when the banks finally displace them with cheap labor? 🙂

    • Not sure if the Chinese will be big enough to play at the elite level. It is sad what you are describing and this is what I do not understand about the ‘free market’ & globalisation – it is fixed on price and constant cost cutting – I get that, but, as you say someone who wants to work for $10 an hour on the sly will always triumph over the$20 an hour! We are told that new jobs and industries are coming…..what are they alternate energy? Maybe, more technology? Maybe too but in reality it will be more ‘Service’ jobs and these are not generally highly valued. I feel your pain Bro!

    • bskerr2,
      I would have to dis-agree with your loose handling of the of the terms “3rd world” and “taking our jobs”.
      In my opinion, it is not easy to undercut wages using overseas workers in any skilled position! A skilled overseas worker will soon realise his “worth” and will jump ships (remember, no one hates money!), so a business trying to undercut wages using these tactics will always be in a “hire-mode” which is not profitable! (I have personally seen 2 businesses closing down after using the above tactics)
      Most of the wage-undercutting happens (in my opinion) in cash-in-hand jobs and are always un-skilled

      If you hinting at the fact that local unskilled workers are not getting jobs and are being undercut? -> Darwinism “Survival of the fittest” “Only species that evolve over time are the ones that survive!”

      Industry mostly filters out the good from the bad over time. People who underperform or in-capable of performing in their current role (irrespective of whether they have got sandstone degrees or degrees via cheating or degrees for visa sake) will always struggle to move ahead and will eventually turn elsewhere i.e. to jobs that they are capable off doing.

      I am sure you have lot more life experiences than me, but this is my opinion.

      Note: By skilled i am not even considering proper qualifications, consider a mining-dump-truck(the big 2-storey trucks) driver

      • OK anyone who tells me this word “Darwinism” when talking about business forgets one thing! Darwinism is based purely off violence and killing. If you look at every living insect or animal in the world, they only have one law, nature which is kill or be killed. So your argument seems somewhat strange when comparing it to the world we live in. But, cracks do show up, where Darwinism does show its face, in the fact that people in poverty are starting to dismiss the law of rights for the law of nature.

        As for what you are telling me, if it were true why are the big banks outsourcing thousands of jobs such as ANZ who has a software development center in Manila now or Westpac or any of the others?

        Are you suggesting that I should follow Darwinism and start using physical violence to secure jobs for the future ?

        • bskerr2,
          may be i mis-understood your post. I thought you were referring to “overseas workers taking away local jobs (jobs still being in the same geographic location)”

          Outsourcing is a phenomenon born out of currency-differentials! There is logic attached it to but not sentiments! It is conundrum faced by the “company” -> local people vs investors(bottom line)! I don’t think I have enough knowledge to comment on that.

          Darwinism is applicable in every field and every aspect of life. You are looking at Darwinism from a carnivorous point of view, look at a herbivorous point of view, they did not have to resort to violence!! they just changed/adapted to different things and environment. Herbivorous animals are still in existence.

          I am sure with your wealth of experience, you would understand the phrase “one has to adapt to survive in a corporate environment”. Would you dis-agree with me if i say this phrase itself shows Darwinism at work?

          In my opinion, be it skilled or unskilled worker, if they do not want to adapt or cannot adapt then it is difficult to survive!

          Note: Adapt can mean anything from change your behaviour or move and adapt to other areas

          • Ok, if you take the argument of skilled or unskilled not adapting which is what we are seeing with our lost youth do you think they will not survive or do you think they they will just ignore the law and revert back to the law of nature? it will be the second one, humans do have a nature of violence, I don’t see us as cows that just eat grass (maybe grass will mass together and become violent against cows? 🙂 ) and young people with no hope are starting to show that. Maybe it is Darwinism in the modern world in some weird way. Greece shows us that people will turn violent and I expect Greece to get worse not better as the country dissolves into anarchy when it defaults.

          • bskerr2,
            Unfortunate but true.

            Those who are willing will move overseas looking for greener pastures in whatever way (that is how “boat people” come about!). Those not willing/able to move to greener pastures will resolve to law-breaking/violence etc to push through. Unfortunately that’s how the world has worked in the past and that’s how it will work even in the future. Side supporting the violence calls it “Revolution/Restoring Commonsense (commonsense has a different meaning depending on the individual/groups)”, and the opposing side calls it “Terrorism”!

            There 🙂 I solved the mysteries of the world. Now wheres my trophy? 🙂

        • Not really a good analogy of Darwinism.

          You’re only really describing animals higher up in the food chain.

          Many species lower in the food chain, many that find themselves prey more than predator, do show attributes that a logical analysis of Darwinian theory would indicate.

      • When it comes to industrial policy, I think Fordism should apply rather than Darwinism. Henry Ford was a successful capitalist after all.

        “Workers are paid higher “living” wages, so they can afford to purchase the products they make”

        In the long run, Outsourcing will simply destroy the customer base in the market that the companies outsource from. In the short term, CEOs can make money, but they’ll be long gone when the companies they led keel over for lack of customers.

        • Uncle Gerry and his mates are facing the brunt of Darwinism. So I guess even in a capitalist-environment, Darwinism is ever present!

      • Industry mostly filters out the good from the bad over time

        That doesn’t explain why John Fletcher keeps getting hired.

        His performance with Coles, then Brambles should infer he would need supervision running the deep fryer at McDonalds.

        The old school tie works much more prevalently than it is given credit for.

      • drsmithyMEMBER

        A skilled overseas worker will soon realise his “worth” and will jump ships […]
        Not if a work visa tied to a specific employer and job prevents him from easily doing so.

        Being a native, I am not familiar with the ins and outs of work visas in Australia. However, I do know that the overhanging threat of losing a visa is used extensively in America to keep skilled immigrant workers on lower-than-normal wages.

        (Those with a conspiracy bent would probably argue that this is done as a wedge to depress wages across the board.)

        so a business trying to undercut wages using these tactics will always be in a “hire-mode” which is not profitable!
        It has been my experience that management, as an entity, views employees more than one level below them as generic, replaceable and commonplace cogs in their great machine. That is to say, they can fired and replaced by a new employee who can reach a similar level of productivity in mere weeks, if not days. I’ve found this attitude to be particularly endemic in the IT world (though that might just be self-bias, as it’s my field – but it’s certainly not something my Engineer wife has experienced).

        Industry mostly filters out the good from the bad over time. People who underperform or in-capable of performing in their current role (irrespective of whether they have got sandstone degrees or degrees via cheating or degrees for visa sake) will always struggle to move ahead and will eventually turn elsewhere i.e. to jobs that they are capable off doing.
        This has not been my experience at all. YMMV, however.

        • >Not if a work visa tied to a specific employer and job prevents him from easily doing so.

          Even if it is tied the employer, when you ‘worker’ or their ‘skill’ is in demand, competitors usually bid and poach! Unfortunately, if that particular skill/worker is in oversupply then I suppose demand-supply thing starts to work again!

          I have friends here in Australia and US on working visas. The ones that are pro-actively adapting/updating and keep themselves ‘relevant’ by trying to expand horizontally and vertically (in domain vs knowledge space) are least bothered. The only ones that are complaining/whinging about being “tied” to the employer are the ones that are not pro-actively doing the above.

          >I’ve found this attitude to be particularly endemic in the IT world

          I does sound cruel, managers are there to match/save/deliver within CAPEX-OPEX budgets. If you hire a network admin and keep him on for 10 years, his yearly increments will just add up and before you know network-admin == 120K, does not add up. However, if the same network-admin pro-actively moves onto different things, sometimes management will try to accomodate the employee, so that the original network admin post remains at 50-60K!! (figures may not be accurate but you get the picture! 🙂 )

          May be my opinions are influenced by small sample sets

          • Even if it is tied the employer, when you ‘worker’ or their ‘skill’ is in demand, competitors usually bid and poach! Unfortunately, if that particular skill/worker is in oversupply then I suppose demand-supply thing starts to work again!
            That’s preicely why employers keep trying to get more immigration.

            Again, I can’t speak for Australian visas, but changing jobs in the US if you’re on a visa is often a long, difficult and risky process that can end in catastrophe if your long-term plan is citizenship, or if you have dependents with you whose legal right to be in the country hinges on that visa.

            I does sound cruel, managers are there to match/save/deliver within CAPEX-OPEX budgets. If you hire a network admin and keep him on for 10 years, his yearly increments will just add up and before you know network-admin == 120K, does not add up.
            This is a prime example of the attitude I’m talking about. If you keep a network admin for 10 years, his experience and domain knowledge about the business would easily make him worth twice as much, and the equivalent of someone with much more impressive paper qualifications. Yet his boss’s boss – who has likely been in the position for much less time – probably thinks he can be replaced in a month by someone with those sufficiently impressive paper qualifications.

            Moreover, said network admin might not _want_ to move onwards into some sort of management or supervisory position. Lots and lots of technical people either have zero interest in these things or, like me, realise we would be very bad at it.

      • I would like to vote, need to be a citizen for that as far as I know, if I had kids I think they would still be NZ citizens, I think also if I had kids there are a number of things they are not entitled to even though many kiwi’s pay the same taxes here. And you always have to look over your shoulder knowing the fact that the law may one day change and you may have to leave. How about buying a home, if a new law comes in saying only citizens or people with PR can buy a home. To many unstable factors when you don’t have PR. In some ways we are just occupying this country, not living in this country.

  4. PS to everyone reading this post, my spelling and grammar is shocking. Must have been that shit hot education through public schooling I got. thank god I work in IT and only need to speak computer language 🙂

  5. Our lunchtime TV news greeted us here in NZ with the glad tidings that “It could take commercial businesses in Christchurch up to 15 years to recover from the earthquakes – that’s if there are no more! Home could be rectified, hopefully, before mid 2014″…Expect more Christchurch ‘refugees’ to head for Aussie, as they settle their financial affairs with the insurance companies/Government. Life’s too short to muck about; and Auckland is not only busting at the seams with imported people, but there are more internal movers arriving into the city each day, to an increasingly jobless outlook.

    • yea, tell me about it, I was accepted to do an Executive MBA at Auckland University, so I flew back to NZ, but left and canceled because there were no decent jobs. The country is not a loser country, but the people running it are.

  6. Most New Zealanders are still under the illusion that after living in Australia for 6 months – 2 years they will be entitled to unemployment benefits.

    Not so. The new laws were introduced on 26 February 2001 that New Zealanders have to live in Australia for 2 years and then if they satisfy certain conditions (under the age of 45 and a rather technical occupation i.e doctor etc) then they could qualify for Australian citizenship and then access sickness or unemployment benefit if the need arose.

    Currently New Zealanders can only qualify for Family Tax Benefits or medicare.

    Once these kiwis come over and cannot find work and realised they are not eligible for benefits they will have to return back to New Zealand.

    • To do …what? That’s the problem.If the only reason is a welfare hand-out ( and I’d have to say that is where your view might be spot on) New Zealand is headed for the garbage can. And that’s a shame for a rather nice little country. If you want to look for a working-model of a hollowed out economy then NZ is a the perfect case-study for you.

      • Yep – NZ has been TESCM’d (Tax Effective Supply Chain Management) practically out of existance.

        Once CGT got scrapped it was an open invitation for foreign coys to go in, buy up all the local competition and ship all the valuable IP offshore!

    • Yep, I second and third those comments. NZ does have a number of people that won’t even work though, who have no drive to get a job. But lets not wipe them all off in this basket, many never stood a chance. At least in the 80’s if you did not have a skill you could still get an ok paying job. Now there is no chance. If you took at the expenses of travel, tax etc.. and compared it to what you got unemployed the difference might be around $60 to $80 dollars. So, its like working an extra 40 hours for that? most people won’t do it.

      Had to also wonder, which is never talked about, all these unemployed people pay up to %50 in rent, in a market that is speculation. That means the average tax payer in NZ and here in Oz is supporting investor profits indirectly through tax payer money that is paid to the unemployed for rent? what a circus.

      • It gets better! Two cases of people who found themselves unemployed. (1) Sold his house and put the money in the bank to live from until he re-established himself. He then didn’t qualify for any welfare support, at all, as he ‘had too much money’ in the bank. Number(2) had 50% equity in his house; didn’t sell to support his family but not only got full unemployment welfare etc, but also an additional accommodation supplement to help with his mortgage payments!

        • Posts disappering? I’ll try again.

          That’s the tragedy Janet. Anyone with liquidity right now with poor job security is in a risky situation. Assume they had $500K liquid and lost their job. They’d be entitled to nothing until down to less than $10K. On the other hand if they bought a $500K property, borrowed $100K whilst still working and sat the other $100K in redraw, without paying the loan out they could access welfare.

          A family of four would gain access to close to $700 per week, through Newstart, Family Tax A/B. Then there’s a number of significant discounts available to utilities, medicine, vehicle registration etc.

          Any Kiwi or other foreigner who can cover the two years (if required), hits the jackpot if welfare is the goal. Many come with larger families, so the benefits are greater. And it is a goal of many. A friend with extensive business links in Asia, including migration reckons we’re no longer symbolised by the Opera House, the Rock or any of the other icons. It’s welfare now.

          I’m tipping used Toyota Tarago salesmen will be happy with the Kiwi figures!

  7. Interesting discussion here, and something you’d never see anywhere else. To break it down to a pretty simplistic overview, any discussion will always stifled by the scrooge mcduck lobby who just want more people for growth, or ‘teh left’ who will scream racism to any hint of questioning immigration.

    The fantastic thing for both of these groups? None of them will ever inhabit the society that their ideals end up creating. They can pull up the drawbridge while everyone else races to the bottom.