Force jab seniors to end pandemic

The Guardian is positive on vaccines:

Voters think the Morrison government will be able to manage the rollout of Covid vaccines safely and effectively despite the obvious downside risks, and a majority believes an early election would be an act of opportunism, according to the latest Guardian Essential poll.

The data also suggests that Labor has been broadly competitive with the Coalition over the past quarter, despite some in the opposition fearing their leader, Anthony Albanese, can’t get a grip on Scott Morrison – a morale slump that has fuelled open speculation about whether Anthony Albanese will lead the ALP to the next election.

The new poll – based on a sample of 1,092 respondents and published at the opening of the parliamentary year – found Morrison enters 2021 with voters inclined to hope.

The data suggests voters feel the new year will be more favourable than 2020 and they believe the national vaccination program can be delivered competently despite supply issues being not entirely within Australia’s control. A majority of survey respondents say 2021 will be better for the nation (56%) and the economy (55%), while just under half the sample (47%) predict 2021 will be better for themselves personally.

In terms of the looming vaccination rollout, 68% express confidence that it will be done efficiently and 72% are confident it will be done safely. There is more hesitation about whether the program will turn the tide of the crisis, with 58% expressing confidence vaccinations will be effective at stopping Covid-19 within Australia.

Newspoll is similar in tone:

This is all besides the point. There is only one group that needs to be vaccinated in a hurry before we can throw open every border: the elderly.

It is seniors that are at risk of severe illness, hospitalisation and death. This is the driver of the problem with hospitals being overwhelmed leading to skyrocketing death rates for them and everybody else. Solve that problem and the pandemic is over.

Therefore, the question we need to ask is should elderly immunisation be mandatory?

Given the scale of cost and disruption from perpetual and compulsive lockdowns, the answer is yes.

Houses and Holes
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Comments

  1. I’m 42 and I would say extremely healthy for age. I am in no way inclined toward getting this thing and would prefer my family is vaccinated before we worry about letting foreign students and int’l travel resume.

    TLDR: it’s not just the oldies

    • +1. DLS also missing the point that vaccines are not 100% and many people will still die without herd immunity.

    • No chance in hell I will ‘take the jab’ akin to the expression ‘take it up the a$$’ ‘take your medicine’ it’s a demand from a presumed authority.
      Stop the caring pretence & just euthanise everyone over some arbitrary number that demotes elderly…the jab will just speed things up. …
      jab (Entry 2 of 2) : a quick or sudden hit with something sharp or hard. boxing : a short, straight punch. British, informal : an injection of something (such as medicine) into your body with a needle.
      No thanks:((

      • It beggars belief that so many people are willing to roll up their sleeves for a ‘jab’ of chemical cocktails for a supposed virus so deadly that you have to be tested to know that you have it, and has a 99%+ recovery rate.

  2. People who want to be vaccinated and are, then shouldnt care about the people who are not vaccinated because even if they catch it off them they wont get sick. Its not like this is a disease where young, unvaccinated children get it and die. Besides, everyone who catches it naturally will then have the same immunity as vaccinated people, so job done.

    • Same argument the woke use to not vaccinate their children against whooping cough. Then their toddlers infect babies in the community who can’t get the vaccine because they are too small end up in hospital.
      The ones that don’t vaccinate and get sick mean wind up in hospital and take beds for people who have other sorts of accidents and cant get care.

      • Children’s immune systems are particularly resistant to this disease. The vast majority of them are completely asymptomatic. As I said, this is NOT a disease where children get it and die – unlike other diseases like measles.

      • Your reasoning does not apply here. The powers that be state covid is not a problem for babies or children. Your position fails in this specific case.

      • Geez when I was a young tad, there was no vaccination for whooping cough. We got it when we went to school or did not, I got it then, but my younger sisters did not, and one was a baby. A baby in the same house. I don’t think the sisters got it at school either.
        I have had a vaccination last year as infectitious diseases Mate-ess of daughter in law decreed that I would never ever see my grandchild if not. That I would no longer have immunity. Had the shot and had a strong reaction for a couple of days, my body knew what it was,
        Same infectious disease idiot told DIL that covid was just flu. Not a chimera, no sars hiv no mERS on its molecule. Double face palm,
        I have no intention of getting the covid shot.
        We saw Biden and suchlike have the shot with the blue cap on the needle.
        However I recently get vaccinated against bacterial pneumonia after a very long satisfactory talk with the nurse.

        • WTF is influencing new & young mothers to make vax demands on family members or they will never see the child. Pathetic submission to social engineering. Any daughter or friend of mine dumb & ignorant to make said demand would be quietly excluded from my association. Jab to your hearts content morons but don’t subject me to thy will. Just stop it:)))

      • Thus the UK strain is problematic. How about we strengthen our borders and very vigilant re letting it into Aus.

        Being a lab produced chimera, huge unnatural virus, when it opens up to replicate its wedge shaped big, and being mRNA doesn’t have the ability to accurately check correct replication….bits fall off, not all replicated so it changes and in time will no longer be a problem to us.

        When the HIV bit fall off, great or the MERS and the SARS then beauty, it wont be nearly as dangerous. Natural virus have a smaller size so as to survive.

        Already it’s dropped off part of that which causes loss of smell and taste.

    • DLS showing some slight fascist tendencies?! Just having a dig. I think Kiwikaryn’s idea is not bad for this particular virus. Although the greatest strength of vaccination is herd immunity – the virus no longer circulates in the community. There’s still a 5%-40% depending on the vaccine effectiveness that if you catch the virus post vaccination you will still get very sick. So we need the government to make it super easy to get vaccinated and strongly encourage it but not quite to the level of “forcing”

    • Maybe reward the public for taking it rather than penalties for not taking. Everyone who gets jab gets a $200 COVID19 stimulus payment.

  3. Guardian readers are a hoot. Supposedly worried about freedoms, yet in favor of a command society – as long as it suits their politics.

  4. “This is all besides the point. There is only one group that needs to be vaccinated in a hurry before we can throw open every border: the elderly.”
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    The restrictions are getting tougher, a single case had WA locked down for 5 days.
    No cases in the wild for weeks in sydney yet everyone has to wear masks on public transport.
    They aren’t reversing direction. They have backed themselves into a corner. The only option now is exclude it at all costs.
    Letting it rip makes a years worth of restrictions pointless. No one is changing direction that far.

    • SoCalSurfCreeperMEMBER

      You are right. Vaccines or no vaccines the borders can never open again unless the country decides its worth a significant and ongoing case load of covid. There will be constant low level transmission and occasional problem variants. I don’t see that acceptance ever happening. So the borders may never open. The outside world already has widespread and endemic covid so the vaccines are going to seem like a miracle. But coming from a position of zero covid being vaccinated and open will still seem much worse.

  5. To date no vaccine has been shown to stop transmission.
    They probably do limit transmission slightly, but it is always going to be a challenge because the site of the infection in the upper respiratory tract will always be ahead of the immune response.

    The vaccines do stop people getting sick and dying, which is a good thing.
    That’s why I’d prefer my parents to be vaccinated.

    And if a vaccine comes along that does stop transmission in its tracks then that would be awesome.

    But in the meantime let’s hold off on the “You have to get vaccinated to protect other people” meme.
    It doesn’t apply in this case.

    DLS’ point about clogging up the hospital system is more pertinent.
    By getting vaccinated, you either won’t get sick or you won’t get as sick as you might have otherwise.
    That reduces stress on hospitals, which is great news for everyone else who needs the hospital for other critical needs.
    And it reduces the likelihood of lockdowns, which is good news for everybody.

    • “And it reduces the likelihood of lockdowns, ”
      Really? A single case is all we need for a lockdown of a city these days.

    • It will be interesting to see if the lockdown approach changes over time and why. Would there need to be a threshold for vaccinations they are aiming for, to get some comfort that a case or two won’t require a lockdown like it has in the past? As you say, this won’t affect transmission, so unless they are happy with # of vaccinations and ready to let it rip, why wouldn’t they keep lockdowns.

    • “reduces the likelihood of lockdowns” — doesn’t eliminate them.
      There might still be a good case for short sharp lockdowns if the benefits of nipping an outbreak in the bud are greater than the short term cost.
      But the lockdown calculus will change when the majority of the elderly and at risk groups are vaccinated.
      This doesn’t imply that it should be made compulsory, just suggests that vaccination will be worthwhile even if it has only limited ability to slow down transmission.

  6. There’s some good info in this video, just the first 3 mins might give you enough if you’re short for time:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9wOwlkjCw4&feature=youtu.be

    Essentially, the death rate increases exponentially with age, and the hospitalisation rate does also, but much less steeply, so if you go for a ‘let it rip for un-vaccinated under 50s’, you still risk overloading the hospital system, and causing massive problems.

  7. “Given the scale of cost and disruption from perpetual and compulsive lockdowns, the answer is yes.”

    Please no. Just give them a choice.
    If they choose not to get the vaccine, then they must fund their entire hospitalisation, should it occur.

    Nobody should be forced to have any sort of medical treatment so you can travel overseas.

    • master of toilet paper

      If they choose not to get the vaccine, then they must fund their entire hospitalisation, should it occur.

      LOL

      u ok with doin that for fat peeps and smokers etc in hospital too?

  8. pfh007.comMEMBER

    Mandatory vaccination?

    Chortle!

    You gotta catch those grey nomads first and they are pretty fast when they need to be.

    Even been at Aldi on a Saturday morning when the assisted living specials are released?

    Mayhem.

    A staff member reported yesterday that her elderly mum was vaccinated a few weeks ago in the UK and on Monday night was confirmed as having been tested positve to Wu-Flu.

    They are still waiting on news as to what it means and whether it is possible she was infected before vaccination.

    Vaccination may not be the silver bullet that all the “lets get back to Neoliberal normal” folk are hoping for.

  9. A few comments:

    1. 41% mandatory for children attending daycare… psychos… (maybe for a well vetted vaccine but people are willing to jab their kids with this rushed job??, no thanks).

    2. Frontline medical staff – can we all agree dealing with this virus is beyond their scope of being a medical worker. What compensation does society propose to provide to these workers for forgoing their rights while the rest of us look on from afar? Its quite disgusting society expects medical staff to continue to work as the status quo, submitting themselves to these risks. This is not what they would have signed up for, therefore they should be compensated for it – i’m sure people wouldn’t be against tax dollars going towards compensating front line medical staff??

    3. Comments in point 2 can be said for teachers/aged care workers etc.

    4. the only people who do not have any rights are international travellers – as they choose to come here, and it is inevitably Australia that will have to foot their medical costs in the event they get sick.

    • RE: point 2. This is exactly what medical staff sign up for. Sick people are infectious. Sometimes you get sick treating them. Sometimes you get HIV, or ebola or dozens of other diseases far worse than the current flavour of the month.

      • So by your logic, if there were constant pandemics, we would have ample supply of medical workers??

        • There is a very long list of contagious diseases far worse than covid that medical workers are exposed to. As medical workers they are also knowledgeable of this and not susceptible to media hype and fearmongering about the risks of current situation. A pandemic just means they are more likely to get infected not at work than would normally be the case, so I would say that pandemic would make little to no difference to available medical staff at all. Demand may be a different story but that’s not what you are talking about.

          Edit: re constant pandemics, Hospitals are always full of sick people, many contagious to varying degrees.

      • This. The OP was literally the silliest thing I’ve read today. Hold about, though, the day is not yet finished.

        • You guys are kidding yourself if you think medical staff sign up to treat pandemics. If this is the case, based on their wages, they are grossly underpaid.

          • They sign up to treat sick people. How does a pandemic change that?
            But I’d agree nurses are underpaid, along with teachers and many other government employees. Doesn’t have anything to do with the nothing pandemic we are currently having in australia though.

          • They sign up to treat ‘routine’ health problems, not pandemics. Look at all the nurses who stayed home during the start of the pandemic. At the core of it, when they are treating ‘routine’ health problems, the risk of them catching the illness is low (as it should be). Is society is asking them to expose themselves to additional risk, they should be compensated for that, and they should be compensated if they have to take a mandatory injection, all so the rest of us can carry on business as usual.

          • The “Flu” was a pandemic, now it’s a routine health problem. Eventually covid will likely be a routine health problem as well.

  10. Straya has only 59 active cases at the moment and unlike most of the global population, we’ve barely been affected. Like the few drops of rain that precede the coming downpour.
    My take is the authorities here are terrified of what lies ahead where case numbers explode and little can be done. The surprisingly harsh lockdowns illustrate that our only hope is to buy time and bet all on the promised efficacy of the various vaccines and this is why the ‘mandatory’ choice on the polls is available. It’s quite possible that the virus case numbers ‘get away’ before widespread vaccinations can be applied. Many, it seems, are NOT trusting of the heavy-handed approach to vaccination and that could be very troublesome with our approach currently.

  11. I’m a decrepit old relic of a senior citizen tottering around at age 58. No way this is going into me for at least a couple of years. I fully support vaccination for childhood diseases etc etc, but not this time around. There’s too much “hurry up let’s make a lot of money” from big pharma, combined with a lot of “We also need to be absolved of all responsibility for negative outcomes” for my liking.

    I would not be at all surprised to discover that these vaccines have negative long term health impacts. I went to school with a thalidomide girl who had little tiny flippers with a couple of useless fingers sticking out of her shoulders where her arms should have been, so I have conservative views on testing of new medical products. In particular, my primary view is “Don’t try testing it on me”.

    • Of course, setting up an automatic total body extreme response to the covid spike protein once it’s invaded cells…not before, it’s not a vaccine as such with existent anti bodies, means a placenta attempting to form is immediately attacked. No babies ever. Maybe a swift cytokine storm instead.

      • Yeah. I have three kids and don’t plan on having any more, so it won’t affect me. But still, how could they know what the effects are on fertility and the development of the foetus from conception? What are the interactions with other medications? What are the interactions with other illnesses?

        • LSWCHP,
          ..were trials with mammals like cats ferrets and more.

          The problem is the jab gets the jabbed ready to kill off the spike proteins used by the the covid to attach to more cells.

          Problem is the spike attachment proteins are used by the placenta formed by the baby to attach to the uterus wall of the mother to be, So the jabbed woman’s body kills off the placental attachment.

          The jab stops this happening so the conception never occurs.

    • “There’s too much “hurry up let’s make a lot of money” from big pharma, combined with a lot of “We also need to be absolved of all responsibility for negative outcomes” for my liking.”
      These 2 are tied into the Governments current vaccine will fix everything plan, or….. crickets.
      There is no plan B, the vaccine MUST be rushed. But it still won’t fix thing, so what then?

      • and alot of quiet in response to increasing questions RE Cwth starting to own enhanced quarantine settings given we have new virus variants and the pandemic has sort of been running a year now.

    • PolarBearMEMBER

      Sympathise with your views. Thalidomide was a catastrophe. The risk from a new drug constantly being in your blood for months or years (esp if pregnant) is greater than a one-off shot that stimulates your immune system. The greatest risk with the jab is an immediate reaction, longterm risks once the jab is no longer in your system would be smaller. The incidence of irreversible immediate reactions to COVID19 vaccines have been vanishingly small globally. They do have adrenaline shots on hand in case of anaphylactic shock. Everyone has to weigh up the risk of longterm damage from COVID vs possible longterm damage from a vaccine. To me longterm damage from COVID looks like the bigger risk.

      • Good thoughts, thanks.

        I appreciate your perspective on risk management. Right now, there hasn’t been a Covid case in Canberra for something like 6 months (IIRC), and my risk calculations weight the vaccine more heavily. I think if Covid was rampant here (or when it becomes rampant) and there are more lethal mutations and the vaccine is demonstrably effective etc then the balance of risk would change and I might change my mind at some point.

    • Shades of MessinaMEMBER

      Meantime in India cases, deaths and hospitilisations are dropping rapidly.

      It’s a weird one.

  12. reusachtigeMEMBER

    LOLOLOLOLOL at how commie we are all becoming! “But it’s for the collective good!!!”

  13. Arthur Schopenhauer

    Let the virus in to brew a more virulent strain that will by-pass the current vaccines? Brilliant David! Just fkn B R I L L I A N T !

    How about rebuilding the local industrial economy instead?

    [Edit] From the Atlantic article link above:

    The coming year could be a story of two worlds undermining each other. Certain countries will approach herd immunity by vaccinating almost every citizen. Other countries could see mass casualties and catastrophic waves of reinfection—potentially with variants that evolved in response to the immunity conferred by the very vaccines to which these populations do not have access. In the process, these hot spots themselves will facilitate rapid evolution, giving rise to even more variants that could make the vaccinated populations susceptible to disease once again. In a recursive loop, the virus could come back to haunt the vaccinated, leading to new surges and lockdowns in coming years.

  14. Enforced vaccination for the elderly? I love MacroBusiness and the insights offered but I think you’ve jumped the shark on this one, and I’m someone who gets the annual flu jab and the other shots.

  15. Where does forcing an experimental medical treatment (it remains experimental until long-term affects can be assessed), stand in regards to the Nuremberg code?

    Why are some so quick to throw out the human rights of others?
    To my mind, no one ever has the right to throw out the human rights of others, especially if they have committed no crime.

  16. Mr SquiggleMEMBER

    What sort of mechanism can make Covid vaccinations ‘mandatory’? New Legislation? Existing legislation? On what basis could an employer compel employees to take this homebrew? If international travellers turn up from Russia, with a Sputnik stamp on their vacc card, can we turn them away because it’s not Pfizer or astra Zeneca?

    Compulsory vacs sound like a pipe dream to me.

    • They will endeavour to make life as miserable as possible for anyone that does not consent to having that crap in them. Aside from that there is little evidence they work and some now think natural immunity will overtake the so called vaccines.

  17. Jevons ghostMEMBER

    Immunisation via injection (“The Jab”) to deal with the virus that causes COVID is NOT the way to go. The way to go is immunisation by the oral route, or better still, as a spray administered via the intranasal route. This is because the pesky virus hangs out in the nasal passages and upper respiratory tract, and it is likely that the best way both to knock it over and to render the recipient non-infectious as a bonus is via stimulating the production of IgA antibodies. This is done by presenting the inactivated/modified virus to the mid gut (small intestine) or better still, to the nasal passages. So imo all this bumph being put to us by TPTB about the benefits of immunisation via “The Jab” is just that: Bumph.

  18. Therefore, the question we need to ask is should elderly immunisation be mandatory?

    Sure. MAKE ALL VACCINES MANDATORY. No question about that.

    and now therefore the question we need to ask is:

    How can we tell the difference between a vaccine and a reckless medical experiment?

  19. Medical procedures should never be mandatory.
    Also we need to ask what is the efficacy of influenza vaccinations when it comes to preventing death. Luckily this is a question that has been asked before covid and the answer was not promising: https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD001269.pub6/full
    From what my pessimistic self can tell, the Covid hysteria has more to do with pharmaceutical companies profits than it does any real risk to society.