Former chief of army tells Abbott to zip it

From The Australian:

The nation’s political leaders have been warned to put aside ­domestic politics and “sniping” in the vital debate about how the world should deal with Islamist terrorism.

As Malcolm Turnbull insisted “every single word” he said on the issue was based on advice from ASIO and the federal police so he did not “play into the hands” of terrorists, intelligence agencies expressed frustration with his predecessor Tony Abbott’s latest contribution to the issue.

Mr Abbott this week criticised the way some practised the Islamic faith, and suggested Islam was inferior to Western culture and needed to undergo a version of Christianity’s Reformation.

Peter Leahy, who commanded Australia’s army during the Iraq war and now advises on strategy, warned that the vital debate about how the world must deal with Islamist terrorism was at risk of being distorted by domestic politics and hijacked by “political snipers”.

Intelligence sources contacted by The Australian also expressed frustration at Mr Abbott’s ­remarks, saying they did little to aid the work of counter-terrorism agencies or law enforcement.

This is not a question of ‘going soft’ on terrorism or ‘political correctness’. It is a question over whether you want to fight a ‘smart war’ or a ‘dumb war’. If the ISIS strategy is to recruit followers by dividing Muslims from their various Western nations then you can either counter and outflank that or exacerbate it.

It’s up to you.

David Llewellyn-Smith
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Comments

  1. If it was up to me, those 3 jumbos sitting idle at some airport would be brought here and every muslim in the country flown out of there. Pronto.
    There is an old tried and true saying, “you may have a fox for a friend, but dont let them near the henhouse”. Its about time we started following some sage advice.

      • Definitely – having read the horror inflicted on humanity in the name of a God over countless centuries, yes – all fundamentalists from any religion or ideology. Pack them all off to an empty continent, fenced off from the rest of the world who just want to live in peace and harmony and kill each other for reasons not associated with religion. Drop large caches of non-nuclear, non-intercontinental weapons and let them fight it out. Last person standing dies of hunger when they realise they need each other to survive.

      • Josh MoorreesMEMBER

        +1 OJ, plenty of modern xtians seem like they would be right at home in a nice theocracy like Iran where they can subjugate their women and persecute anyone that makes them feel uncomfortable at those nagging attractions to the same gender. If they want that let them go set up their little slice of heaven and leave the growing secular world behind. Maybe we’ll get lucky and the rapture will happen any day now (as so many various religions like to tell us) and the world can finally get a little more peaceful.

      • “growing secular world behind”

        Biggest problem we have is that we (the West) love to get rid of secular govts./dictators or ones intolerant of Wahabi ideaology – Assad, Saddam, Gaddafi. We also love being allied with the biggest non secular Ialamic state sponsor of terrorism in Saudi Arabia.

        The Saudis financed and carried out 9/11. Why isn’t the whole country alight? Yet Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan are? If the neocons get their way they may just try to do the same to Iran.

        People need to wake up. If you want to target Islamic fundamentalism, you need to target it at it’s root – Saudi petro dollars that finance the exportation of Wahabi teachings, Wahabi mosques and ideology across the globe in any country with a large muslim population.

        The real truth is that the USA foreign policy establishment cares little to do this. They use 9/11 and the specter of terrorism to achieve their geopolitical ambitions in the Mid East. If they cared they would have ruthlessly executed every Saudi national involved in financing terror and put the House of Saud on notice to reign their sh*t in. This did not happen!

    • The problem is the export of two terrorism from Saudi Arabia. They build mosques throughout the west to export Wahhabism . I agree with your view about the henhouse. The Saudis are savages. The way things are going Unless we control the Saudis we will end up like France and the UK. He is Israelis have the right idea. They don’t put up with this garbage, And they are surrounded by tourists

    • Given the behaviour of christians in Northern Ireland, the former Yugoslavia, and in schools and orphanages around the world, you’d better add christians to the passenger manifest of those to be deported.

      Or is it that you hold one religion to a higher standard than another?

    • WW, you know as about islam and muslims as you do about rain in Hedland. I’m sorry, but it has to be said, you nothing but a bigoted, old white man.

      • WW,

        America had a big part in starting WWII, not to mention Russia did the heavy lifting wrt Germany, as far as the Pacific war goes one should read about the 20 point memo.

        Skippy… Romantic history is not your friend.

      • “You left out American, us, who saved your miserable asses on many occasions.”

        Romantic Hollywood history. WW2 ended with the battle of Stalingrad and Moscow. The Wehrmacht was smashed in these battles beyond repair. The Eastern Front swallowed almost in a ratio of 3:1 versus the Western front of the German forces – and they sent their better units to the Eastern front too.

        The reality of ww2 history is that in terms of lives and blood to destroy the Nazis it was Russia that did the heavy lifting – with help from the British supply lines. The German war machine never recovered (and couldn’t have recovered) from the Battle of Stalingrad.

      • WW you forgot that it was the Americans who got us into this mess in the first place.

        If they had stayed out of the middle east, it would still be run by dictators but at least the area was stable and the death count was a hell of a lot lower than it is now.

      • If they had stayed out of the middle east, it would still be run by dictators but at least the area was stable and the death count was a hell of a lot lower than it is now.

        If the yanks had stayed out of the middle east, maybe some of the democracies they orchestrated the destruction of might have flourished and spread their ideas to other parts of the region.

      • Ahhh, Wiley Wolf, another disaffected yank. Except you’re the kind that most Americans will say ‘good riddance’ to, based on your unconstitutional views. And while rubbishing everything good Americans stand for, you’re ready to stand up and take personal credit for preventing everyone from speaking German and Japanese 60 years ago.

        All I can say is… Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

    • If it was up to me, those 3 jumbos sitting idle at some airport would be brought here and every muslim in the country flown out of there. Pronto.

      And with them, every migrant as well, especially South Africans. Eh, you old bigot? 🙄

      What a WilliWanka you are, mate.

      • Isn’t it fantastic when the loon pond show their true colours? Wiley Wolf is MB’s Donald Trump; going full-retard for everyone to see.

      • Couldn’t have said it better myself. Ignorant xenophobe of the highest order is that WW.

        Also, when it comes to terrorism of the Islamic variety, if we’re honest we must look to the USA – a principle funder/enabler of violent Islamist groups. They’ve been doing it for decades with a steady stream of unintended consequences. Isn’t the definition of insanity to keep repeating the same mistake expecting a different outcome?

    • Friedrich Nietzsche

      Its almost as if these things didn’t happen in Christian society

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation

      I mean its almost as if we are still living under the same literal theocracy which oppressed and brutalised society for centuries.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance

      I mean, what a crazy idea to reform your religion based on reason, logic and intelligent thought over literal interpretations of religious tomes.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

      I mean suggesting that almost every Islamic country on earth being influenced to some – OR ALL – by Sharia law, literally the Inquisition being practised in modern, progressive 21st century is some sort of anathema ?

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_sharia_law_by_country#Sharia_in_the_world

      Spare me the bullshit please MB – Islam is an unreformed fundamentalist theocratic hegemony governing almost every Islamic nation on earth and abided by its people.

      There is simply no question whether Islam needs reformation, renaissance, enlightenment and maybe even a whole re-write of the Quran while they at it – the New Testament is well and truly overdue for these Luddites and Iconoclaters.

      • Hey, I’d be happy if they took all the religious texts, Jew, Christian, Muslim, all the theocracies, and pulped them. 💡 You need more than a reformation in religions (and Catholicism is crying out for an update as well), you need abolition. We cannot afford these 1000+ year old belief systems anymore. Too many problems, too little time!

      • Consequently, everyone who identifies as a Muslim should be rounded up into camps and exterminated, right ?

        Or are we able to grasp the concept that some – maybe even most – Muslims, like most Christians, Jews, Catholics or other $BELIEVERS are able to cherry pick out the bits they like and ignore the rest ?

        A fundamentalist interpretation of almost any religion’s texts leads to some pretty nasty conclusions. Fortunately very few do this.


      • There is simply no question whether Islam needs reformation…

        Like the Christian reformation in Europe which caused the Thirty Years War? But with the weapons that are available in the 21st century, possibly including chemical weapons and nukes, rather than inaccurate muzzle loaded firearms and swords? And spilling into every country with a Muslim population?

        Yep, great idea.

      • ErmingtonPlumbingMEMBER

        They are well into their “30 years war” right now.
        The American involvement and “Interventions” into the Islamic world, is all about Fleecing the US Taxpayer (trillion dollar+ wars) and insuring Economic access to resources and markets for US companies. They don’t give a [email protected] about what the reality and machinations on the ground are.
        The Military industrial complex along with the global financiers have taken over the show.

        Eisenhower did warn us all

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY

        Having said all that I’m still with Christopher Hitchens when he points out Not all Religious doctrines are the same.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQiEO58RZZ4

      • “Its almost as if these things didn’t happen in Christian society

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation

        It’s almost like the dickhead who is lecturing the world about the need for Islam to reform is a member (and nearly a priest) of a church that the Protestants broke away from. You know, so it didn’t actually reform itself.

        http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/09/tony-abbott-you-do-know-you-belong-to-a-church-that-has-not-reformed-dont-you

    • “every muslim in the country flown out of there”

      Just out of curiosity how do you propose to identify these people.
      Being a “muslim” is, after all, a state of mind. Not something branded on your forehead.
      How do you know I’m not secretly worshiping Allah?

      Or are you just talking about the brown skinned ones with funny accents?

      • TA face book is just 1 element. Everything you do today is monitored and evaluated by sets of algos to monitor say, personality, location, contacts. from that coarse inferences are drawn,
        This is what this data retention is all about.
        First pass you’ll get most then the rest can be mopped up.

      • Or I’ve got a better idea.
        Let’s go to every home in the country and ask every Australian to SPIT on a copy of the Quran.
        Those who refuse are OBVIOUSLY muslims and we can pack them off.

        Bullet proof. What could go wrong?
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumi-e

        “The Japanese government used fumi-e to reveal practicing Catholics and sympathizers. Fumi-e were pictures of the Virgin Mary and Christ. Government officials made everybody trample on these pictures. People reluctant to step on the pictures were identified as Catholics … by the government. Executions sometimes took place at Nagasaki’s Mount Unzen, where some were boiled in the hot springs”

    • WW,

      Actually I like Americans, but I’ll make an exception for you! 🙂

      Now, since you stated your “knowledge” of going to war, what is your combat experience?

      • D the only person here who knows of my military background is Mig, and that is the way it is staying.

        BTW you sharp as chopsticks mining types in WA, Gina’s IO is underway.
        I doubt any of you guys will ever be employed again. Get used to posting here for entertainment.


      • The only person who here who knows of my military background is Mig, and that is the way it is staying

        On the one hand Mig isn’t here, on the other, given you keep referring to your military experience, including that at least part of it related to clearance diving, it seems inevitable we all know everything about it before too much longer.

    • @ Wild eyed Wolf
      “You left out American, us, who saved your miserable asses on many occasions” — What Bull $hit!
      America is an armed camp looking for a War to “help” their economy & IS the “real” Terrorist threat we have to address. Total F%&^$ fruit loops as are you !

    • WW,

      They’re not my “heroes” and regardless of what happens to IO I’ll remain employed, but thanks for your concern, I’m touched!

  2. Yeah lets not talk about it – and maybe the problem will go away?

    Same number of Buddhists in Oz, and they don’t run around beheading, raping small girls and the like… whats wrong with them???

    • “Yeah lets not talk about it – and maybe the problem will go away?”

      Clearly that’s the only other alternative. And what would ASIO and former Army commanders know anyway?

      “raping small girls”

      Not sure if you’ve been following the child abuse Royal Commission much lately but Abbott’s own church seems to be featuring pretty prominently. Along with some pretty close mates of his.

      • Mining BoganMEMBER

        Has ex-our Tony ever tried to explain why he wanted that royal commission quashed?

        It couldn’t have all been about protecting ‘Big George’ Pell.

      • Rotheram was chid abuse on an industrial scale. 1/3 of Turkish brides are now children after Attaturk’s influence has waned. I was in the RC , without diminishing those victims it is nothing in comparison.

      • “Big George” Pell apparently gets enraged when victims of priest pedophilia try to tell their stories.

        BTW, Pell is also a climate denier. Figures

      • The crimes of Gerald Risdale alone are approximately equal to the crimes of the five men involved in the Rotherham scandal, in terms of victim count.

        Not that it matters that much – the point is that lack of oversight and respect for children are the ingredients required for child abuse, not this religion or that religion. To adapt a saying used elsewhere, the sole determining factor in child abuse is the presence of a child abuser (the lack of oversight and respect simply mean that non child abuser adults don’t act to remove the child abuser).

      • SS, I respect what you have to say, but I was doing those trials in Ballarat in the 1990s, i was also doing the Muslim ones in recent times. The people who pay the price for political correctness are the most disenfranchised in our society, in this case two 15 yo aboriginal girls.L A L v The Queen [2011] VSCA 111. Rotheram as you know, although there were few charged, the systematic abuse of young white girls was estimated to be 1400.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-gnGjt9vFk
        The initial targets in the UK were Sikh and Hindu girls. This is a religious thing.

      • Having now read a big chunk of the Jay report, I feel even more sure that religion is not the issue here, as opposed to groups of men who wanted to abuse children taking advantage of various failures of government and community institutions. Agree that the ‘racist guilt’ thing was a problem, but so was pure incompetence by police and others.

        1400 victims conservative estimate of total, not of ‘white’ victims. The Jay Report makes explicit that perpetrators more frequently targeted girls from their own community in order to manipulate cultural expectations for better concealment of their crimes (pretty much the same as the RC priests) – see section 11.15

      • ErmingtonPlumbingMEMBER

        George Pell and Abbott are both nothing more than blindly ambitious careerists, both closeted atheists for sure, the catholic and anglican churches are full of them.
        Non believing Club members playing along for the benefits of seniority.

      • SS
        That part of the report relates to a case study of 35 asian girls across the UK in a report from the UK Muslim Women’s network. You are wrong in your conclusion.

        “5.5 In this part of the report, we have not specified the ethnicity of the victims or the perpetrators. In a large number of the historic cases in particular, most of the victims in the cases we sampled were white British children, and the majority of the perpetrators were from minority ethnic communities. They were described generically in the files as ‘Asian males’ without precise reference being made to their ethnicity. ”

        “By far the majority of perpetrators were described as ‘Asian’ by victims, yet throughout the entire period, councillors did not engage directly with the Pakistani-heritage community to discuss how best they could jointly address the issue. Some councillors seemed to think it was a one-off problem, which they hoped would go away. Several staff described their nervousness about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought racist; others remembered clear direction from their managers not to do so” Executive Summary.p 2

        PC thinking as you can see is highly damaging, in this case it was very young British girls who paid the price.

      • Yeah, and more recent follow up reports have decided the majority of perpetrators were white, and 100 police are being investigated for failing to perform adequately.
        It’s just rape, as perpetrated by rapists, which everyone else failed to stop.

      • “He (the judge)said he could not explain why the criminals “focused their attention on white under-age girls”, but believed their “vulnerability” played a major role. He claimed that if the criminals had targeted “Asian under-age girls, they would have paid a heavy price in their community.”
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aylesbury_sex_gang
        See Derby, Rochdale, Oxford, Bristol, Telford, Peterborough, Sex Gangs. The victims are vulnerable white and very young, the perpetrators Muslim.

      • Obviously when there’s child abuse in the country that gave us Savile, Ian Watkins, Paul Gadd and embraced Rolf Harris it’s Islam that’s the cause rather than institutions that don’t work, like the police, the council etc

        Also Casey report which came out in August 2015

      • Yep. Can’t argue with the facts. I don’t think this is a race thing, this is a religious thing. It started with Sikh and Hindu girls…

        The first three pages of that PDF suggest a comically partisan and subjective document.

        A quick google for “Gavin Boby” and “Law and Freedom Foundation” (right up there with the “Democratic People’s Republic of Korea” in terms of irony) confirms it. Loon pond territory.

      • SS you’re wrong, the real problem is not the Council or the police it is the Islamic supremacist rapist.

      • You’re the one belittling the victims by rejecting the message of Operation Yewtree et al that child abuse is pervasive in any community that chooses to ignore it and doesn’t take the victims’ stories seriously – just as the police failed to do when they first heard about Watkins and Gadd and Savile (for about three decades) and just as they failed to do for about ten years in Rotherham.

      • Don’t belittle the victims.

        And fuck you too.

        People who disapprove of chid rape are not loons.

        Nobody is suggesting they are.

        This is the religion, not the race. I know this doesn’t suit the PC narrative

        No, it’s people abusing children. I know this doesn’t suit the white power! narrative.

      • How is it not a problem when the police force – you know, the organisation who are supposed to protect the community – choose repeatedly not to investigate allegations of child abuse? They allow Watkins to rape babies , Savile to rape children by the hundred and gangs of predators to establish fbemselves at Rotherham despite being told repeatedly about all of it and they’re not at fault?

        You’re just mental.

      • dr S And the Sikhs -how precisely do they fit into the white power narrative….
        Boby is a UK lawyer, he is not a loon.

        SS I never said the Council or police were blameless, you are overlooking the perpetrators of these crimes, and the common factors in the sex gangs that I have nominated. Nothing mental about that.

      • dr S And the Sikhs -how precisely do they fit into the white power narrative….

        You’re running the narrative here.

        Boby is a UK lawyer, he is not a loon.

        There are plenty of lawyers who are ideological loons. George Brandis, for example.

        In the first three pages of that PDF you linked to, he’s all but condoning, if not advocating, vigilantism against muslims in an absurd (and arguably negligent, given his profession) hypothetical scenario.

        This is in direct conflict with a) the law and b) freedom.

        I have little doubt if I dig into those “statistics” being used to try and demonstrate some sort of causal link between being a Muslim and being a rapist, I’ll find they’re made up, cherry-picked, and/or deliberately misinterpreted.

        SS I never said the Council or police were blameless, you are overlooking the perpetrators of these crimes, and the common factors in the sex gangs that I have nominated.

        Common factor ? Like, say, being male ?

        LOCK UP ALL THE MEN, THEY’RE RAPISTS !!!

      • The only common factor between all these cases is that numerous opportunities to stop the perpetrators were missed and hundreds if not thousands of victims that could have been saved, weren’t. consequently. Includes Savile, Watkins, Risdale, Rotherham, all the rest.

      • As long as the perpetrators are all male there’s nothing to see here hey Smithy?

        Your logic champ. Just applied with a slightly different bias.

      • SS obfuscation….. Your link please for the majority of Rotherhan perpetrators being white as you claimed contrary to the report
        Who are going to support those young Sikh kids if not DrS?

      • @Researchtime -” You see awful ignorance on this website about Christianity, and likewise for Islam. It is the ultimate warrior religion ” ( further down comment with NO link )

        The ultimate warrior religion .What a a crock ! You must live in another World. America has killed millions of Civilians over the past 30 years alone & every one for spurious reasons. The US Govt is not Islamic. Britain, Australia & others have helped with the carnage – all so called Christians. We could go back to the Crusades – – – you know sweet FA so stick to subject you know something about.

      • How so – we all sit around a camp fire and sing singing kumbaya my lord?

        You just don’t get it. This is the future of civilisation. Ask the question – what will Europe look like in a generation?

        Trust me – Moslems are not interested in what you think or feel. This is not a time to be PC H&H. This is about the country you want your kids to grow up in.

        You see awful ignorance on this website about Christianity, and likewise for Islam. It is the ultimate warrior religion. It is very powerful and after hundreds of years of dormancy, it is arising and in realising how impotent the world is around it. Christianity on the other hand will continue to decline in the West (well, Western Europe at least). You had better hope your faith in secularism is as well founded as you think… because I suspect its not.

        Abbott is dead right on this… a little un-PC as per usual. Never cut out to be PM. Our true test is decades away.

      • “Trust me – Moslems are not interested in what you think or feel.”

        I’d prefer to trust those who actually have experience in the area – you know, like the guys who are quoted telling Abbott to shut up.

      • You constantly accuse me of hyperbowl but what do you call this “future of civilisation” drivel?

        You’re not arguing sensibly, either. You’re using straw men like “kumbaya”, implying I’m a poo-eating pacifist which is pure ad hominem. I supported the Aghanistan war with full media backing and have supported others as well. I just don’t believe in fighting stupid wars like Iraq.

        A sensible argument is to examine the enemy and what is he up to instead of throwing out provocative drivel like Abbott and you just did.

        The ISIS threat is bloody small in the scheme of things unless you want to make it big which would be pretty bloody stupid.

      • yeah, I see a real ground swell… as Australia’s top Inman says, we just persecute them… and “persecution is worse than slaughter”

      • H&H, Abbott is completely wrong against troops on the ground, completely and utterly wrong, I was against going into Iraq, and I was against going into Afghanistan. We cannot win this war on their terms… we can not beat them in battle.

        That is not what I am referring to. A war of attrition, we will lose. Make no mistake about that fact.

      • RT….

        The last round of ME high jinks with Bush going the full Iraq retard [ALEC neocon new American century], based on fraudulent evidence, left a vacuum which gave the Saudis the maneuvering room to engage in a bit of ethnic cleansing. It seems it got a wee bit out of hand.

        Not only that but one cannot even begin to contextualize the regions issues unless you go back to the waning of the Ottoman Empire and successive WW’s. You just can’t go back a few years or decades, its as bad as young earth optics.

        Skippy…. FYI… ALEC and the neocon new American century – is – a fundamentalist Christian agenda…

      • I’m with tony on this HnH. Obama is doing the same line as Turnbull. I don’t think it’s the way to go despite the advice. Unless you stop the money it is just going to get worse. The cure for Muslim violence is not more Muslims We should do what the gulf states and the Japanese do and not import terrorists.

      • “Unless you stop the money it is just going to get worse.”

        I haven’t heard Tony mention the money. Is he calling for sanctions on the Saudis?

      • The only way forward is secular humanism and education. If we can teach kids to think rationally and prevent kids being exposed to religion of any kind the world will be better place in 20 years time. Extremists like Abbott, Wiley Wolf and Researchtime should be ignored. Ignoring them will drive them nuts.

      • @RT. The goal of the ISIS is to make a Western country turn against their Muslim, thus providing them with more recruits, support and money. Tony Abbott is doing the work for ISIS. He is endangering Australia’s national security to for a chance to undermine MT.

      • “How so – we all sit around a camp fire and sing singing kumbaya my lord?”

        It’s pretty clear our leaders don’t know really know what they’re doing in the Middle East. So yeah, until they can put forward a convincing strategy maybe doing nothing is the least worst option.

      • It’s pretty clear our leaders don’t know really know what they’re doing in the Middle East.

        Sure they do, it just doesn’t have anything to do with stopping terrorism.

      • Some seem unaware of the transition from Eisenhower democracy used in the ME and the Stans [Afghanistan was a cosmopolitanism city – agrarian rural state] until it was replaced with Reagan neoliberalism ratcheting up the Cold War to McCarthy like furor.

        From this – http://www.businessinsider.com.au/astonishing-photos-of-prewar-afghanistan-show-everyday-life-in-peaceful-kabul-2013-2#on-the-left-is-a-picture-showing-the-photographers-daughter-in-a-pleasant-park-on-the-right-is-that-same-park-40-years-later-1

        Too become a Narco-Criminal State …

        Skippy…. gets a bit old and repetitive… ME, Stans, Central – South America, Africa….

      • ‘The cure for Muslim violence is not more Muslims We should do what the gulf states and the Japanese do and not import terrorists.’
        +1000 virgins. And as far as the middle east goes use the likes of Greek orthodox Christians and orthodox Christians such as Michel Aflaq and George Habash as examples to push arab nationalism to drive out Daesh types which was going swimmingly until the West removed Christianity from those areas. You could even take a leaf from Waleed Aly’s book and say if you commit Christianityphobia you are enabling Daesh.

    • I’ve spent the last 15 years living in a community that has many Muslims within it. We are often dining at the same places and sharing public transport. Only once have I feel threatened, and that was the fool had decided to get really drunk and ride public transport. Now the bogan who have thrown beer bottles at me from moving cars, and want to pick fights, they are the ones I watch out for.

    • Same number of Buddhists in Oz, and they don’t run around beheading, raping small girls and the like… whats wrong with them???

      Good point. Maybe we can throw all the Catholics out with the Muslims ?

      It’s a shame we don’t treat people arguing about which religion is better like we would people arguing whether the Easter Bunny is superior to Santa Claus.

      • my sky wizard is a sky wizard of love…worship my sky wizard or a great curse and pestilence will kill you all..
        I’ve got a gutful of fkn witchdoctors pontificating on unsubstantified crap

      • ErmingtonPlumbingMEMBER

        Ah yes it’s all a lot of fun, when it’s all just a game of “Pick your nonsense” but when individuals are coerced with threats of extreme violence to “submit” and the punishment for apostasy is death then your talking some really repugnant stuff.

      • Ah yes it’s all a lot of fun, when it’s all just a game of “Pick your nonsense” but when individuals are coerced with threats of extreme violence to “submit” and the punishment for apostasy is death then your talking some really repugnant stuff.

        Indeed. Hence the reason some of us find the fairly unsubtle “Muslim == guilty” attitude of some posters here rather distasteful.

      • “…but when individuals are coerced with threats of extreme violence to “submit” and the punishment for apostasy is death then your talking some really repugnant stuff.”

        I don’t think there’s anyone at MB that would disagree with that statement.

    • Look.

      The reason Abbott is bringing this up is because he wants to deflect attention from the Royal Commission into kiddie fiddling, and the attendant focus on his church.

      He is undertaking a course calculated to make terrorism and religious tensions much higher, possibly with fatal consequences for innocent people. He is doing it to cover up for pedophiles.

      Abbott is covering for pedophiles.

      • WW… the issue is of historical proportions and not your personal feelings. I’m ex military too, plus a diver, yet history leads me to different conclusions than those I had whilst serving, bad intel like information arb leads to poor outcomes, as we both know all to well.

      • Well then it comes down to a funding issue 3d1k, that means the conservatives and neocons should have never started the whole thing back in the day and play footsie with other fundamentalists in the region for profit.

      • Why don’t you admit that it’s Blowback AND well deserved. Who could have seen it coming –what a joke.

  3. Leahy has always been a smart, considered guy, as for Abbott, what a joke.
    The sooner he leaves politics the better.

    • A joke alright, and a fundamentalist one. I rate him as the most dangerous PM and politician of the modern era.

      Interesting how the morality is compartmentalised to a holy war, but clear cases of corruption (eg vocational ed farce) were left untouched.

      He is a dangerous piece of work.

      • aj, that’s about it, but we’re fortunate he was here and not in a country that has far reaching political and military force.

      • And fortunate that we ourselves are surrounded by ocean, making it difficult for him to start a war with an aggressive neighbor.

  4. Former Army commanders need to revisit their loyalty oath. They are just running a branch office for Haliburton and a host of other companies in the US MIC.

    The Australian Armed Forces need to be able to operate independently of all other forces under all circumstances if we are a sovereign nation. Yes this will cost serious money. See Israel for some ideas about how to do this.

      • The idea is to be able to defend your own country, Israel can do this without US support, we can not, our military and political leaders have failed us.

        Of course they cannot attack Iran without US support, but that is another matter. Similarly we could never participate in a major war without Imperial support, I don’t suggest that, but I do think a sovereign country has to able to defend its own borders regardless of Imperial support in case the Empire in question has other priorities.

      • I’m not talking about military backing. I’m talking about financial military aid. Which the US have funded Israel by to the tune of 100 billion dollars.

        (They also have mandatory military service and are not an isolated island in the southern ocean)

      • They also have a pile of citizen soldiers. They are impressive. They are a democracy surrounded by enemies and terrorists who want them dead.

      • They are a democracy surrounded by enemies and terrorists who want them dead.

        And don’t they put in the hard yards to keep it that way.

      • @ fitzroy
        http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/modern-world-history-1918-to-1980/the-middle-east-1917-to-1973/palestine-1918-to-1948/

        Perhaps in part as a consequence of their inability to deal with the shame their own ugly prejudice against Jews, some allies help to create the Zionist state post WWII. Since then Israel has morphed into a state that behaves like an expansionist colonial power. Not my words, they are the words of prominent Jewish writer Antony Loewenstein. To quote him:
        “Anti-Semitism must never be tolerated. It must be challenged and crushed. This conflict isn’t about Jews versus Arabs. It’s about Zionism colonising Arab lands. Remember that many Jews are proudly Jewish and proudly anti-Zionist. “
        See: http://antonyloewenstein.com/tag/independent-australian-jewish-voices/

        Israel now has outwardly racist/prejudiced policies like collective punishment. There is nothing impressive about that at all.

    • – – – yea right – – we know all about Israel — the murdering thugs -Americas pit bull in the Middle East.
      Great example — – NOT !

  5. Do these rules apply to Waleed as well? If the PM takes his advice from intelligence agencies then shouldn’t all political commentators as their comments have the potential to inflame as well.

      • No, he is simply the articulate face of religious apologism for his particular cult and their imaginary friend.

      • The point is, his view is articulate measured and thoughtful. Oppose the view if you wish, but do it articulately, chanting slogans like a 16 y/old does not add much to the discussion, and really does just make you easy proletariat fodder for those that want to forment hate.

      • “No, he is simply the articulate face of religious apologism for his particular cult and their imaginary friend.”

        What does this even mean?! What cult? What imaginary friend?

    • Not according to Chris Becker – Waleed is allowed free reign publicly being a Moslem apologetic, apparently, but we are not allowed to point that out… PC gone mad.

      • You are allowed to point it out, just not like a snarky 16 y/old with no education or experience. Add to the debate or be used by the debate – its up to you.

      • FiftiesFibroShack

        Waleed isn’t an apologist for Islamists, and that’s the crucial point you have obviously missed.

      • “Waleed isn’t an apologist for Islamists, and that’s the crucial point you have obviously missed.”

        Yep, this isn’t about being political correctness, it’s about ensuring someone isn’t being slandered. Now if RT wants to come up with some quotes and direct accusations then we can have a sensible debate. Otherwise it’s just noise..

      • Researchtime… I see your true colours, shining through. Reading the contributions from Wiley Wolf and Researchtime have been thoroughly delightful.

        ♫ I see your true colours, shining through ♫.

        Oh, and WW, no-one gives a toss that you were in the military. It makes you no more of an authority than my local bartender. Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

  6. reusachtigeMEMBER

    Muslims aren’t the best looking types and I’ve heard that’s why their women are forced to cover up. Not sure if it’s true or not because you can’t see them.

    • You hit the nail on the head. They’re not proper investors, likely not even OOs, which means their RENTERS, so obviously bloody ugly!

  7. FiftiesFibroShack

    Tony will do or say anything to score some political points. If that means doing the opposite of the advice given from every security agency and expert we have, so be it. This isn’t about a considered and sensible course of action – it’s about what’s good for Tony.

    • Mining BoganMEMBER

      He’s our Hiro Onada, except his war will never be over. That happens when you continually launch yourself into conflict.

    • What Testosterone wants is for MT to lose the next election so he and his nutter far right mates can cry out that Tone would have won.

  8. This was Tony’s actual quote – was he perhaps referring to the (Catholic) Irish Republican Army of the 1980’s?
    “All cultures are not equal and, frankly, a culture that believes in decency and tolerance is much to be preferred to one which thinks that you can kill in the name of God, and we’ve got to be prepared to say that.”

  9. Its interesting how the Australian military and its competence, has been brought into this discussion.
    Can anyone tell me any fight the Aussies have won in say the last 50 years, None Zero.
    The Aussie military couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery.
    Its not the troops, they are worlds best, its the commanders.

    Now many say we should send in the troops, always walking miles in other person’s boots.
    Well I am X military, and going into battle is no fun.

    My take on this is, if you are there to protect the hens and all foxes look alike, its best to keep them well separated, and those foxes who break out, have to be taken out.
    Have you all forgotten Cowra.

    • “Can anyone tell me any fight the Aussies have won in say the last 50 years, None Zero.”

      Hmm.. today less 50 years takes us to 1965 yes?

      I’m looking at:

      18 August 1966
      2 September 2008
      29 July 2011

    • “Can anyone tell me any fight the Aussies have won in say the last 50 years, None Zero.”
      Timor…
      You’re not covering yourself in glory today WW

  10. Is there any chance we could stick to the core business of this forum?

    I wonder if the interesting question from the MB perspective is how the impending Saudi budget deficit will affect the ability of radicals to spread their message. Does it get harder (because the Saudi’s run out of money) or easier (because the government is only interested in protecting the oligarchy, so if the oligarchy lose financial clout the ability of radicals to exert political influence gets greater).

    • The core business of this forum is what the authors make it. Any attempt to separate economics from politics is pointless. They are the same entity viewed from different angles.

      If the fruitcakes in the US (embodied by Trump) who are mirror images of Abbott get the upper hand, do you think it won’t affect economics? Of course it will.

  11. A few more terrorist acts around the world between now and the next election and I fully expect that anti-islam party headed by Girt Wilders to win at least ten percent plus in Australia- possibly considerably more. I am not sure if he is fielding candidates.
    I am not sure the posters on here are remotely representative of the general populace. I do not know almost anyone, including labor voters, who would disagree with Abbott in my workforce. People are scared. They are scared for their children in particular. Telling us to not be scared isn’t going to work because what we are scared of is real and not imagined. Being PC isn’t going to cut it and it isn’t going to cut it across all class of voters except maybe green voters. An attack here would see Australia lurch way harder right than any European country such as France.
    I welcome it. Now is not the time for platitudes. These people want to kill us.

    • Seriously?

      One could have made the same observation about christians during the troubles in Northern Ireland, or in the fight between Serbs and Croats. Not to mention that priests are all out to rape our kids. /sarc

      It’s just that sort of nonsense that we don’t need. However, it is what the terrorists want – to make us see other religions as enemies.

      All in the name of Abbott using this to deflect attention from the Royal Commission into sex abuse of children by the churches. Disgraceful.

    • These people want to kill us.

      Fortunately they’re almost all somewhere else, and we live on an island.

      We’ve spent a century meddling in their sovereign, economic, cultural and social affairs. Maybe if we want them to stop attacking us, we could address some of the root causes ?

      While we’re talking about root causes, let’s look at the root cause of people’s fear and fear “for their children”: shameless and malicious scaremongering by morally bankrupt morons like Tony Abbot.

      They are scared for their children in particular. Telling us to not be scared isn’t going to work because what we are scared of is real and not imagined.

      Gastro is a (far) greater risk to your child’s life than terrorism. You are a thousand times more likely to die in a car accident than at the hands of terrorism, yet I haven’t seen anyone suggesting we pack all the cars up onto a container ship and dump them at sea.

      Terrorism is such an insignificant issue in Australia it doesn’t even qualify as a rounding error in the list of things that might hurt you.

      • Bronwyn Bishop says she needs to stay in parliament to “fight terrorism”, so there, it must be a bigger threat than we knew 😉

      • http://www.theshovel.com.au/2015/12/09/isis-scales-back-operations-after-bronwyn-bishop-confirms-shell-run-again/

        The effect was almost immediate. On Wednesday afternoon former Speaker Bronwyn Bishop announced she would contest her seat again in order to fight terrorism. By nightfall, a dozen ISIS operatives had gone to ground.

        ASIO intelligence agents said ‘chatter’ on tapped phone lines had died to nothing; operations months in the planning, quickly scrapped. The Islamic extremist organisation knew they had met their match.

        After all, the Member for Mackellar has an imposing record. Since she won office in 1998 there hasn’t been a single terrorist attack in her electorate.

        One counter-terrorism expert said that while the 73 year-old hadn’t expressly stated how she would fight terrorism, she didn’t need to. “It’s implied. She’s got millions of tax-payer dollars and a fleet of helicopters behind her. I wouldn’t be messing with her either”.

      • Some of them do want to kill you DrS…. let me assure you of that……
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Nacer_Benbrika

        Probably not much different from the number of Christians who would want to kill me because of my views on religion and abortion.

        Fortunately nearly all of them are not resident in this country, nor any other country I intend to visit.

        If you take into account the Bali Bombings, it is less insignificant.

        No, it’s still insignificant. Something like a hundred Australians have been killed by terrorism – domestic and foreign – in the last thirty years, the vast majority of them in the Bali bombings, a once-off incident.

        Traffic accidents – consistently – kill ten times as many people every year, and they are not even the biggest danger. Heck, over two thousand Australians commit suicide every year. Forty-odd thousand die of cancer.

        Etc.

      • I think there is a distinction to be made Dr. S

        Between what ? Violent fundamentalists and not violent fundamentalists ?

        I agree.

        Is it your contention, as it clearly is some other posters’, that one cannot be a Muslim without being a violent fundamentalist ?

      • “Some of them do want to kill you…”

        Has our past meddling in the Middle East made them want to kill us less or more? Would more meddling make them less or more likely to want to kill us?

        Howard was a proud member of the Coalition of the Willing in Iraq war. Has that made us more or less safe as a nation? If Abbott had sent troops to Syria would that increased or decreased our nation’s security?

      • “Howard was a proud member of the Coalition of the Willing in Iraq war. Has that made us more or less safe as a nation?”
        Yes and Andrew Wilkie blew the whistle on that whole debacle in part because it would make us less safe. I am also aware some are very concerned that Howard’s mandatory detainment of boat people had a similar result. Often the outcome of “looking strong” on national security with these poorly thought through interventions (which often have ulterior motives) is a national security problem.

      • ‘Seven Fallen Pillars’ by Jon Kimche would be a nice light read for the ignorant at this point. Even MSM/aristocratic journalists like Kimche, had a better understanding of how the British basically formed the Musilim Brotherhood et al. Its the only book on the subject that I can think of, that’s ‘white’ enough to make it on the secondary syllabus. Dr. S, is completely right – we have been meddling there since the 1890’s – we caused all of this. Also, one has to realise that WE are completely barbaric (europeans) and continue to be this way. What other race could develop a mechanical device like the ‘Pear’, a device 50-100 years ahead of its time – purely in the name of inhumane torture? Also realise not everything one see’s on the TV’s is actually real, we are at war – propaganda is more rife than ever before. The other week an American friend had a murder occur in his complex, the media was barred from entry. Turns out it was a drug deal gone wrong, however the Media reported it as a “Race War”. Stop watching and listening to top down (miltary/corp) controlled MSM/alternative media (same thing).

    • It is most certainly imagined dude. The problem is that people are stupid and it appears that it’s much easier to get scared when you’re stupid.

    • Goodie, sorry, but you have an immature fertile imagination. You have more chance of dying from a bloody bee sting than a terrorist act here.

      I seriously doubt many if the anti muslim commentators have ever lived/worked with a large group of muslims. Go ask the residents and council in Tarragon how they feel about them.

      It NEVER ceases to amaze me how an intelligent persons brain can go walkabout when it comes to race/religion. Actually it’s fcuking stupid.

    • Anti-Muslim feelings is a response to political rhetoric. Most non-Muslum don’t know anything about Islam (or other religions), and it is easy to drum up fear against the unknown.
      Educate yourself, read up about its foundation and history, and you’ll realize how the mistakes from dealing with the collapse of the Ottoman Empire still resonates today.

      • “and you’ll realize how the mistakes from dealing with the collapse of the Ottoman Empire still resonates today.”

        Sometimes i wonder what people actually see when they look at map of the Mid East – like do they ever get curious as to why there are borders all over the place in perfectly straight lines?

        If people had any clue, they would realise Syria has been a Western project for a long time. They want it broken into different pieces. This serves their purpose – geopolitically and economically. Of course the Turks lead the charge on the ground, because it means they have the chance to regain territories lost in the South at the fall of the empire – which they feel is rightfully theirs, and also the only land they actually have a serious shot as restoring as their own. This is what the no fly zone is all about. It is step number 1. It’s why they just invaded Iraq too. It also prevents a merging of Kurdish groups in the South.

        Alas, Erdogan did something stupid – they provoked their historical enemy, Russia. At last count they have lost two wars against Russia for every one they have been victorious in. Not very good odds for Turkey if you go by history. Russia is weak and isolated in Syria. Depending on NATO (USA) resolve the partitioning of Syria may still occur, it will really depend on how far Russia is willing to take this at this point. At some point in the future if US (defacto NATO) continue on the current course, surrounding Russia, provoking it by trying to extend NATO membership to its border (Georgia, Ukraine) and accepting historical allies (Montenegro), at some point in the future, if it does not happen in a Syria flashpoint, whoever is leading in Russia will go all the way.

    • “I welcome it. Now is not the time for platitudes. These people want to kill us.”

      Do they want to kill us because of our freedoms?

  12. Terror Australis

    Just for kicks, here is what i did last night.
    I watched Trumps latest speech in its entirety.

    Then i watched some of black and white reels of Hitlers speeches about “jews” and “making Gemany strong again”.

    If you look past the swastikas and observe how the two men played their crowds, watched there postures, gestures etc….

    scary.

    Abbott is Trump-lite.

      • An interesting read and perhaps the best (short) analysis of Trump that I’ve read. http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/its-too-late-to-turn-off-trump-20151209

        It’s not an accident that his attention span lasts exactly one news cycle. He’s exactly like the rest of America, except that he’s making news, not following it – starring on TV instead of watching it. Just like we channel-surf, he focuses as long as he can on whatever mess he’s in, and then he moves on to the next bad idea or incorrect memory that pops into his head.

        Lots of people have remarked on the irony of this absurd caricature of a spoiled rich kid connecting so well with working-class America. But Trump does have something very much in common with everybody else. He watches TV. That’s his primary experience with reality, and just like most of his voters, he doesn’t realize that it’s a distorted picture.

        If you got all of your information from TV and movies, you’d have some pretty dumb ideas. You’d be convinced blowing stuff up works, because it always does in our movies. You’d have no empathy for the poor, because there are no poor people in American movies or TV shows – they’re rarely even shown on the news, because advertisers consider them a bummer.

        Politically, you’d have no ability to grasp nuance or complexity, since there is none in our mainstream political discussion. All problems, even the most complicated, are boiled down to a few minutes of TV content at most. That’s how issues like the last financial collapse completely flew by Middle America. The truth, with all the intricacies of all those arcane new mortgage-based financial instruments, was much harder to grasp than a story about lazy minorities buying houses they couldn’t afford, which is what Middle America still believes.

        Trump isn’t just selling these easy answers. He’s also buying them. Trump is a TV believer. He’s so subsumed in all the crap he’s watched – and you can tell by the cropped syntax in his books and his speech, Trump is a watcher, not a reader – it’s all mixed up in his head.


    • Then i watched some of black and white reels of Hitlers speeches about “jews” and “making Gemany strong again”.

      Some of Riefenstahl’s cinematography is truly incredible.

      I’m inclined to the view that if more people watched Triumph of the Will with assistance to understand what he’s really saying, and how he’s manipulating his audience, there would be very little chance of a demagogue being able to manipulate millions of followers.

      Also, studying one of the relatively few terrorist organisations to actually succeed in grabbing power in a democracy seems like it could be highly instructive in light of the problem under discussion.

      • Anyone who wants to see some expensive cinema directly inspired by Leni Riefenstahl… just watch the new Star Wars movie. The whole series is a repeat of Triumph of the Will, with filler added.

    • “If you look past the swastikas and observe how the two men played their crowds, watched there postures, gestures etc….”

      Funny that you should mention that…

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-used-to-keep-a-book-of-hitlers-speeches-by-his-bed-according-to-his-ex-wife-a6765391.html

      According to a 1990 Vanity Fair interview, Ivana Trump once told her lawyer Michael Kennedy that her husband, real-estate mogul Donald Trump, now a leading Republican presidential candidate, kept a book of Hitler’s speeches near his bed.

      “Last April, perhaps in a surge of Czech nationalism, Ivana Trump told her lawyer Michael Kennedy that from time to time her husband reads a book of Hitler’s collected speeches, My New Order, which he keeps in a cabinet by his bed … Hitler’s speeches, from his earliest days up through the Phony War of 1939, reveal his extraordinary ability as a master propagandist,” Marie Brenner wrote.

      • I do a little bit of presentation training as part of my work.
        It’s a fact that often it’s not so much WHAT is said, but HOW it is said that is so powerful.
        Even if people can’t remember what they heard, they will retain a sense of the speaker’s authority which is conveyed through their timing, posture, tone of voice, facial expression, eye contact, pausing, movement and gestures… lots of things.

        That’s why Shorten is where he is. It’s apparent that he’s had lots of coaching but he doesn’t seem like a natural public speaker so he doesn’t project any sense of authority. Turnbull on the other hand is a master. Hitler had it. Trump has it.

      • “That’s why Shorten is where he is. It’s apparent that he’s had lots of coaching but he doesn’t seem like a natural public speaker so he doesn’t project any sense of authority. Turnbull on the other hand is a master. Hitler had it. Trump has it.”

        Couldn’t agree more.

        The only question I have is whether Trump’s reality TV training will hold up under more serious scrutiny and extended debate if/when he wins the Republican nomination. He’s a master of the (rambling and disjointed) speech and short, sharp interview questions but not necessarily so good at debating or arguing at length.

        As TV goes, so goes US society.

  13. Abbott is having a breakdown. He is delusional. He is out of touch with reality. The best thing that happened for us was that he was so delusional he thought he could trash his promises and so brought out with Hockey, the most deceitful and unfair budget for decades with no intervening factors to justify it. He destroyed the broad electorate’s trust in him. Then he compounded it with idiot “captain’s calls”. Such an achiever in education but so stupid, sort of like a social idiot savant.

  14. Outside the loon pond no-one is listening to Abbott anyway. He is suffering from relevance deprivation. He is best ignored, which would drive him crazy.

    • Lorax,

      I think you need to rework the following “….which would drive him crazy…..” How do you drive someone crazy who is already batshit crazy? 🙂

    • Problem with Abbott is that he likely goes home and preys for a major terorist attack here, to help his own future political, at the expense of everyone else.

      • Who cares what he prays for. It’s no more damaging that my schadenfreude about the coming depression. It’s irrelevant. He’s irrelevant, except insofar as he’s a great example of just how off the planet the loon pond have become (waves at Researchtime and Wiley Wolf).

  15. Anyway there is no need to worry.
    Bronnie has pledged herself to another term fighting the Muslim Menace.
    http://www.theshovel.com.au/2015/12/09/isis-scales-back-operations-after-bronwyn-bishop-confirms-shell-run-again/

    ‘… the Member for Mackellar has an imposing record. Since she won office in 1998 there hasn’t been a single terrorist attack in her electorate.

    One counter-terrorism expert said that while the 73 year-old hadn’t expressly stated how she would fight terrorism, she didn’t need to. “It’s implied. She’s got millions of tax-payer dollars and a fleet of helicopters behind her. I wouldn’t be messing with her either”.’

  16. When either three daughters of a certain politician slips on a pair of army, navy or airforce boots then I may perhaps listen to you. Till that happens shut the f$&kup.